Thursday, August 31, 2017

Reviews of Jonathan Neville's Works

Jonathan Neville is a proponent of the Heartland Model of Book of Mormon geography. He has a reputation of lacking intellectual integrity as he tends to distort facts to suit his agenda of propping up the indefensible (the Heartland model) as well as his attacks on those who hold to Mesoamerica being the lands of the Book of Mormon. One recent example is his article “Elder Holland’s powerful talk to a room full of unbelievers” where he clearly distorts the talk given by Jeffrey R. Holland's talk The Greatness of the Evidence at the Chiasmus Jubilee celebrating the 50th anniversary of John W. Welch's discovery of chiasmus in the Book of Mormon.

Today I read a book by Neville, Whatever Happened to the Golden Plates? While I am unaware of any review of this particular volume, his works have been refuted rather soundly by competent LDS scholars:


Gregory L. Smith, “From the Sea East Even to the Sea West”: Thoughts on a Proposed Book of Mormon Chiasm Describing Geography in Alma 22:27

Matthew Roper, The Treason of the Geographers: Mythical “Mesoamerican” Conspiracy and the Book of Mormon

Idem, John Bernhisel’s Gift to a Prophet: Incidents of Travel in Central America and the Book of Mormon

Matthew Roper, Paul Fields, and Larry Bassist, Zarahemla Revisited: Neville’s Newest Novel





Answering Lee Baker's "Challenging Questions": One Year Later

In February 2015, former Latter-day Saint, Lee Baker, posted four questions he presented as being unanswerable by Latter-day Saints and offered $1,000.00 to anyone who could cogently answer his questions as well as a promise to cease his anti-Mormon activities. I responded to his criticism here:


This was posted over a year ago now.

In spite of being made aware of this (rather devastating) response to his questions, Baker has refused to honour the $1,000 he owes me. Indeed, I called him out on this previously on this blog, and others have called him out elsewhere. Notwithstanding, one year later, Baker still have to honour his word. I challenge Baker to either (1) respond meaningfully and in a scholarly manner to my answers to his four questions or (2) send me the money via Pay Pal (click here).


Do Mormons Believe in Multiple Gods? | 3 Mormons

My friend, Stephen Smoot, discussed the plurality of the Gods with 3 Mormons. The video has just been posted online:


One text that was mentioned in passing but did not get dealt with (time constraints and the casual setting of 3 Mormons and all that . . . ) was that of Exo 20:3, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Some critics have latched onto this verse as evidence against Latter-day Saint theology, as they argue, it is strictly monotheistic. However, this is a gross misreading of the passage.

The Hebrew translated as "before me" is the Hebrew phrase, על פני , which literally means “before my face.” In the Ancient Near East, the images of the gods of conquered people were placed into debir (back/western part) of the sanctuary/temple of the conquering people and faced the image of the chief God of the pantheon of the victors. What this verse is condemning is the forging, and placement of cultic images in the debir as well as forging a cultic image of Yahweh. That this is the case is seen from the proceeding verses:

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, or serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me. (Exo 20:4-5)


Furthermore, the majority of Old Testament scholars see in Exo 20:3 an implicit recognition of the real/ontological existence of other gods. According to Michael Coogan, this commandment does not express monotheism, but rather presumes the existence of other deities--as in a marriage, one of the primary analogies for the covenant, Israel is to be a faithful wife to her husband (Yahweh), or, as in a treaty, a vassal to his suzerain. When the prophets condemn the Israelites for having worshipped other gods in violation of this, and related commandments (e.g., the Shema [Deut 6:4]), the metaphors of marital and political fidelity are often invoked, sometimes rather graphically (e.g., Ezek 16:23-24; 23:2-12; Jer 2:23-25; 3:1-10), as well as the depiction of Yahweh as a jealous husband (e.g., Exo 34:14), and the worship of other gods, or making alliances with foreign powers, provokes his rage. (Michael Coogan, The Old Testament: A Historical and Literary Introduction to the Hebrew Scriptures [New York: Oxford University Press, 2006], 176, 116)

There is nothing in this verse that opposes Latter-day Saint theology when (1) one reads the underlining Hebrew; (2) examined in its historical and cultural context and (3) when read in the context of the proceeding commandments.




Wednesday, August 30, 2017

D. Charles Pyle Answering LDS-related topics on Quora

D. Charles Pyle, who used to have a rather useful Website (still available via Archive.org), has been answering a number of questions, often LDS-related, on the Quora Website. One can find his page here.

His most recent answer is a very well done response to the following:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons): What do the Book of Abraham papyri held in the University of Chicago archives actually say?


Joseph Smith against Eternal Security

In a sermon dated 10 March 1844, Joseph Smith said the following, in part, against the doctrine of eternal security/perseverance of the saints:

Here is the doctrin of Election that the world have quarreled so much about, but they do not know any thing about it, The doctrin that the Prysbeterians & Methodist have quarreled so much about once in grace always in grace, or falling away from grace I will say a word about, they are both wrong, truth takes a road between them both. for while the Presbyterian says once in grace you cannot fall the Methodist says you can have grace to day, fall from it to morrow, next day have grace again & so follow it, but the doctrin of the scriptures & the spirit of Elijah would show them both fals & take a road between them both for according to the scriptures if a man has receive the good word of God & tasted of the powers of the world to come if they shall fall away it is impossible to renew them again, seeing they have Crucified the son of God afresh & put him to an open frame shame, so their is a possibility of falling away you could not be renewed again, & the power of Elijah Cannot seal against this sin, for this is a reserve made in the seals & power of the priesthood, I will make evry doctrin plain that I present & it shall stand upon a firm bases And I am at the defiance of the world for I will take shelter under the broad sheler cover of the wings of the work in which I am ingaged, it matters not to me if aIl hell boils over I regard it ownly as I would the crackling of thorns under a pot A murderer; for instance one that sheds innocent Blood Cannot have forgiveness, David sought repentance at the hand of God Carefully with tears, but he could ownly get it through Hell, he got a promise that his soul should not be left in Hell, Although David was a King he never did obtain the spirit & power of Elijah & the fulness of the Priesthood, & the priesthood that he received & the throne & kingdom of David is to be taken from him & given to another by the name of David in the last days, raised up out of his linage Peter refered to the same subject on the day of pentecost, but the multitude did not get the endowment that Peter had but several days after the people asked what shall we do, Peter says I would ye had done it ignorantly speaking of crucifying the Lord &c He did not say to them repent & be baptized for the remission of your sins but he said repent therefore & be converted that your sins may be blotted out when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord, Acts iii, 19 this is the case with murderers they could not be baptized for the remission of sins for they had shed innocent Blood. (The Words of Joseph Smith: The Contemporary accounts of the Nauvoo discourses of the Prophet Joseph, eds. Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W. Cook [Orem, Utah: Grandin Book Company, 1991], 330)

Such comments are consistent with any meaningful exegesis of texts such as Heb 6:4-6 and 10:26-29




A Roman Catholic Examines the Five Solas: A Conversation with Peter D. Williams

Roman Catholic apologist Peter D. Williams recently gave a presentation which has been posted online:

A Roman Catholic Examines the Five Solas: A Conversation with Peter D. Williams


Readers of this blog may recall the name "Peter D Williams" as I "plugged" his debate on Mariology with James White on this blog a few weeks ago (unlike many debates on this topic, the Catholic apologist managed to hold his own).

Latter-day Saints will find this to be of interest, as Williams does a good job at critiquing various Protestant doctrines (e.g., sola fide and sola scriptura) as well as defending doctrines LDS and Catholics agree on, such as baptismal regeneration.

Naturally, as he defends the Mass as a propitiatory sacrifice, based on the Greek of the phrase "this is my body," the Papacy, and other topics that LDS (strongly) disagree with; notwithstanding, as Williams is a well-informed Catholic, so one will learn, not just what, but why Catholics believe in things such as their understanding of the Communion of Saints.

Tuesday, August 29, 2017

Calvinism and the Assurance of Salvation

Commenting on the lack of assurance of salvation among many who are Calvinists and profess limited atonement, both historical and even in the modern period, one Evangelical wrote that:

With their emphasis on limited atonement, they could never be sure that Christ had died for them, hence they were forced to look inside at one’s works and the essential holiness of one’s heart rather than rely upon the promises of scripture and the experience of the Spirit. But even here there was no peace because the doctrine of temporary faith and developed stole the hole of assurance by injecting the question of one’s election into the equation: “Perhaps the ‘fruit’ I see in my life is not that of regeneration, but the pre-regenerate work of the Spirit from which I may fall away.” In San Diego, November, 1989, at the Evangelical Theological Society annual meeting, Dr. John MacArthur was asked when a believer could be assured of his salvation; his reply was that such assurance could be had only after death. (M. James Sawyer, “The Witness of the Spirit in the Protestant Tradition” in Who’s Afraid of the Holy Spirit? An Investigation into the Ministry of the Spirit of God Today, eds. Daniel B. Wallace and M. James Sawyer [Dallas: Biblical Studies Press, 2005], 71-93, 299-303, here, p. 299 n. 15)


Such a contrast being the false claim among Calvinists who claim they “know beyond a shadow of a doubt” that they are saved and will enter immediately into the presence of God when they die. It is false for two reasons: (1) the reality of their theology does not allow for such, as McArthur and more honest Calvinists will admit and (2) Calvinism is a false gospel.

The Evangelical “Testimony”: Feelings, nothing more than superficial feelings!

Many Evangelicals critique the Latter-day Saint appeal to an internal witness of the Holy Spirit of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon (Moroni 10:3-5). However, they show themselves to be operating under a blatant double-standard, as various Protestant confessions, theological, and apologetic works appeal to an internal witness of the Holy Spirit to confirm the Bible and other topics. See the section entitled “A Self-Attesting, Self-Authenticating, Formally Sufficient Scripture?” here. I have discussed the hypocrisy of anti-Mormons, such as Mike and Ann Thomas, on this score, too:


(I based the title of this blog post on the title of their chapter in Mormonism: A Gold-Plated Religion [1997, 2008] discussing [in a very distorted manner] the LDS testimony)

Today I read a volume, Who’s Afraid of the Holy Spirit? An Investigation of the Ministry of the Spirit of God Today, eds. Daniel B. Wallace and M. James Sawyer (Dallas: Biblical Studies Press, 2005). In many of the essays contained therein, a privileging of emotions similar to the caricature of anti-Mormon portrayals of LDS epistemology.

Please read the following and ask yourself, “If a Latter-day Saint wrote/said the following, how would an anti-Mormon/Evangelical Protestant respond?” “Feelings, nothing more than feelings!”; “that is anti-intellectual—you are chucking your brain at the door!” and “that is dangerous, cultic thinking!” would be used, right?

After discussing his family’s battle with a son’s serious illness, Wallace wrote the following in an essay entitled, “The Uneasy Conscience of a Non-Charismatic Evangelical”:

Through this experience I found that the Bible was not adequate. I needed God in a personal way—not as an object of my study, but as friend, guide, comforter. I needed an existential experience of the Holy One. Quite frankly, I found that the Bible was not the answer. I found the scriptures to be helpful—even authoritatively helpful—as a guide. But without feeling God, the Bible gave me little solace. In the midst of this “summer from hell,” I began to examine what had become of my faith. I found a longing to get closer to God, but found myself unable to do so through my normal means: exegesis, scripture reading, more exegesis. I believe that I had depersonalized God so much that when I really needed him I didn’t know how to relate. I longed for him, but found many community-wide restrictions in my cessationist environment. I looked for God, but all I found was a suffocation of the Spirit in my evangelical tradition as well as in my own heart. (p. 7)

Elsewhere, in an essay entitled, “The Witness of the Spirit in Romans 8:16,” Wallace wrote:

3. How does the Spirit bear witness to our spirits? Certainly, he works on our hearts to convince us of the truth of scripture. But there is more. His inner witness is both immediate and intuitive. It involves a non-discursive presence that is recognized in the soul. This at least is the position of Calvin and the Reformers . . . Thus, the inner witness of the Spirit is supra-logical, not sub-logical—like the peace from God that surpasses all understanding. There are elements of the Christian faith that are not verifiable on an empirical plane. This makes them no less true.

4. For conflict in the academic realm: If the witness of the Spirit that I am a child of God is intuitive, then it is outside the realm of what is objectively verifiable. This does not make it any less true. We are too much sons of the Enlightenment when we deny intuition and internal apprehensions any value. When you fell in love, what scientific means did you use to verify the state of your heart? None. As every mother tells her child, “You just know.” It’s an apt analogy because it is one of the last vestiges of the pre-Enlightenment era that we still affirm. No one challenges it because there are no scientific means to determine whether a person is in love. Yet, we send bright young students armed with an M.Div. or Th.M. from an evangelical seminary into battle at secular schools, telling them only, “Trust your exegesis.” Too many have become spiritual casualties because they suppressed the inner witness of the Spirit . . . (p. 50)

In his essay, “The Witness of the Spirit in the Protestant Tradition,” M. James Sawyer discusses the various confessions (e.g., Westminster [1647]) that appealed to the inner witness of the Holy Spirit, as well as various theologians in the Protestant traditions. Commenting on Jonathan Edwards (1703-1758), Sawyer wrote:

[H]e had a keen interest and fervent awareness of the necessity and reality of the witness of the Spirit in the life of the believer as an immediate experiential presence. He at various times makes mention of the work of the Spirit. A couple of examples will suffice to show his essential agreements with Wesley as to the nature of the witness, and his continuity with the Reformers in linking the witness of the Spirit to confirming the truth of the word of God. Edward notes:

And it seems to be necessary to suppose that there is an immediate influence of the Spirit of God, oftentimes, in bringing texts of Scripture to the mind. Not that I suppose it is done in a way of immediate revelation, without any use of the memory; but yet there seem plainly to be an immediate and extraordinary influence, in leading their thoughts to such and such passages of Scripture, and exciting them in the memory. Indeed, in some, God seems to bring texts of Scripture to their minds no otherwise than by leading them into such frames and meditations as harmonize with those Scriptures; but in many persons there seems to be something more like this . . . (Jonathan Edwards, “A Faithful Narrative of the Surprising Work of God,” The Works of Jonathan Edwards, 2.1084-85)

In speaking of one of his parishioner’s experiences of the Spirit, Edwards testifies again to the immediate nature of the witness of the Spirit in confirming the truth and divinity of scripture.

She had sometimes the powerful breathings of the Spirit of God on her soul, while reading the Scripture; and would express her sense of the certain truth and divinity thereof. She sometimes would appear with a pleasant smile on her countenance; and once, when her sister took notice of it, and asked why she smiled, she replied, I am rim-full of a sweet feeling within. (ibid., 1100-1101)

Thus, with both Edwards and Wesley there is an insistence on the immediate nature of the witness of the Spirit. Neither one follows the Puritan lead of insisting on the practical syllogism in gaining assurance of salvation. For both, the evidence of the Spirit is an immediate supra-rational experience in the soul, not unrelated to the word, and not to be conceived as mysticism. (pp. 84-85)

David Eckman, in “The Holy Spirit and Our Emotions,” wrote the following in a section entitled, “The Spirit and Our Emotions”:

Since the presence of the Spirit is internal, the work of the Spirit of God is emotional. One example will illustrate the point. As the believer is involved in the exercise of faith, the Spirit of God, for example, will supply joy and peace. In the details of a particular text, Rom 15:13, the Spirit is not the only member of the Trinity relating to the Christian. Paul related the believer’s emotional life to two members of the Trinity, the Father and the Spirit. The God of hope is supposed to fill (the same word as used in Eph 5:18) the believer with every variety of joy and peace in the process of believing. All of this is to be done by the inherent power of the Holy Spirit. The process of generating these emotions is completely dependent upon the Holy Spirit’s work. (p. 212)

With respect to Gal 5:22-23 (But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law” [NASB]), Sawyer writes that:

Spirituality is a life normally dominated by primary emotions—primary in the sense that these are what Christian existence is founded upon. Note how each term of the fruit of the Spirit carries an emotional connotation. (p. 213)

In a section on how to minister to our emotions, Sawyer offered the following tips to the reader which is reminiscent of how LDS missionaries teach people how to tell the difference between superficial emotions and the experience of the Holy Spirit:

What we have to do to gain and maintain spiritual health is as follows:

We have to recognize or differentiated what is going on within our emotional life and in the management of our appetites (Gal 5:16-24). This gives us information as to where we are starting from, either with spirituality or carnality . . . We have to set our minds on our relationships above; we control our thinking (Rom 8:1-6; Col 3:1-3). The terms used in both Rom 8 and Col 3 refer to perspective. By reckoning we relate to God personally instead of to our appetites (Rom 6:11-12). The focus of a person’s inner life can either be the God on the outside of the appetites on the inside. Sadly our appetites many times have far more impact on many of us than God does. The focus on our inner person has to be on God the Father, and our identity before him as found in Christ, and not in our appetites. So no matter the level of pressure from our inward desires, we must freely approach and share ourselves with God. (p. 214)

Finally, in his essay, “The Holy Spirit in Missions,” Donald K. Smith wrote the following under the heading of “Rationalism Largely Excludes the Holy Spirit,” which, if it came from a Latter-day Saint, would be branded by Evangelicals as “cultic” due to its “anti-intellectual” nature:

Why, then, does it appear that the Holy Spirit is more active in Asia, Africa, or Latin America than in Europe and North America? . . . I suggest that the real point is not a difference in the working of the Holy Spirit, but in a difference in the working of our human perceptions. Just as our unaided ear cannot detect radio signals nor can our eyes pick up television signals, the untransformed heart is unable and/or unwilling to perceive the Holy Spirit except in ways consistent with our existing understanding. Our ability to perceive anything rests not only on our physical senses but on our previous experience and on our heart belief—our world view.

In Western cultures, reason is considered supreme. The cultural mainstream says that feelings are not to be trusted, and emotion should always be controlled. The Enlightenment paradigm infuses nearly every part of Western life, even our systematic theologies. It leads us to believe that Truth must be found and proved by careful logic, and that logic rests on empirical observations. If “it” cannot be weighed, counted, or measures in some way, “it” does not exist . . . This core/heart belief in Western cultures has made it nearly impossible to perceive the genuine working of the Holy Spirit.

Thus, the fundamental reason the ministry of the Holy Spirit seems more visible outside the North Atlantic nations is a matter of perception. We experience what we are conditioned to perceive. Since the dominant paradigm in North Atlantic nations is rationalistic, humanistic, and materialistic, we do not expect to see reality outside the boundaries established by our minds. (pp. 243, 244)




The disputed "canonical" status of Esther and Song of Solomon among some Jews

With respect to the book of Esther and the “canonical” nature thereof amongst first century Jews, one Roman Catholic scholar wrote:

The Mishnah reports that there was discussion near the end of the first century AD about the sacredness of some works:

All of the holy writings defile the hands [are sacred]. Song of Songs and Ecclesiastes defile the hands. Rabbi Judah said, ‘Song of Songs defile the hands, but Ecclesiastes was in dispute.’ . .. But Rabbi Akiba said, ‘God forbid! No one in Israel disputed the fact that Song of Songs defiles the hands, for the entire world does not compare with the day that Songs of Songs was given to Israel. All the writings are holy, but Song of Songs is holiest of all. If there was a dispute, it was only about Ecclesiastes.’ (Yadaim 3:5)

This text suggests that the inclusion of Ecclesiastes was probably a debatable issue, of doubt because of the radical skepticism of the work. In addition to Song of Songs and Ecclesiastes, the book of Esther was also a debated inclusion (see Zeitlin, 175-78). The evidence that Esther was included late is as follows:

a.      The festival of Purim, which is advocated in Esther, is given as a semi-holiday by the Megillat Taanit, which lists the days when fasting is prohibited but which are not noted in the biblical text. This suggests that Esther was not yet accepted as scripture when Megillat Taanit was drawn up (late first century AD?)
b.     Later rabbis appealed to Megillat Taanit to support the celebration of Purim rather than the book of Esther.
c.      The Talmud notes that ‘Esther does not defile the hands’ (Rabbi Samuel, 3rd century), that the book ‘was composed by divine inspiration to be read but not to be written down’, and that ‘Esther petitioned the sage “Record me for posterity”.’ (Megillah 7a).
d.     Several Christian writers of whom the most important witness is Melito, bishop of Sardis (about 170 AD) did not list Esther among the works that the Jewish community considered canonical.

The above considerations suggests at the time of Josephus the status of Ecclesiastes and Esther was unsettled. Esther was probably not accepted as a ‘writing which defiles the hands’ until the second century AD and then due to the pressure of public opinion and the influence of its use in Purim (so Zeitlin, 176). (J.H. Hayes, “The Canon of the Old Testament” in Contemporary Catholic Theology: A Reader, eds. Michael A. Hayes and Liam Gearon [Herefordshire, United Kingdom: Gracewring, 1998], 62-86, here, pp.74-75)

With respect to the debate about the status of the Song of Solomon, one leading expert on this text wrote:


The propriety of inclusion of the Song of Songs in the Canon was apparently questioned from the start and has been vigorously protested in modern times. Yet it must be said that the evidence for its early acceptance, in spite of the objections, is as well attested as that for any other portion of the Jewish-Christian Scripture. It has been regarded and transmitted as canonical by both the Synagogue and the Church.

Whether the allusion to Solomon’s writings in Ecclus 47:15b includes the Son of Songs is doubtful; it is probably of more than a poetic allusion to I Kings 5:12. Similarly, Josephus’ enumeration of the sacred books (Against Apion I 8) does not make clear whether the Song of Songs was counted among the “four books which contain hymns to God and precepts for the conduct of human life.” It is, however, included in the list of sacred books in the Talmud (Baba Bathra 14) and in the Canon of Melito, Bishop of Sardis, who in the latter part of the second century traveled to Palestine to discover what books were considered canonical there. It was translated into Greek by Aquila between ca. A.D. 90 and 130 and later by Symmachus and Theodotion before the end of the second century.


From rabbinic sources we gather that there was some dissension about the canonicity of the Song of Songs at the council of Yabneh (Jamnia) and that Aqiba took an active part in the controversy. This need not mean, as some scholars (notably Graetz) have supposed, that the book had remained outside the Canon until that time. The issue was not whether the book was included in the Canon, but whether it should have been. The dispute arose in connection with another book attributed to Solomon, viz. Qohelet (Ecclesiastes). Rabbi Judah opined (Mishnah, Yadayim III 5) that the Song of Songs defiles the hands (i.e. is tabu or sacred, hence canonical), but Qohelet does not defile the hands, while Rabbi Jose said that the Song of Songs is disputed. Aqiba, however, said, “Perish the thought! No man of Israel ever disputed about the Song of Songs, that it did not defile the hands. The whole world is not worth the day on which the Song of Songs was given to Israel, for all the Scriptures are holy, but the Song of Songs is the Holy of Holies; if they disagreed, it was only about Qohelet that they disagreed.” Rabbi Aqibas’s regarded for the Song of Song as the veritable Holy of Holies moved him also to protest what he regarded as its profanation in the “Banquet House.” “He who trills his voice in chanting the Song of Songs in the banquet house and treats it as a sort of song (zĕmîr) has no part in the world to come” (Tosefta, Sanhedrin XII 10). A similar view is expressed elsewhere, anonymously, “He who pronounces a verse of the Song of Songs and makes a sort of song and pronounces a verse in a banquet house not in its time brings evil to the world” (TB Sanhedrin 101 a). (Marvin Pope, Song of Songs: A New Translation with Introduction and Commentary [AB 7C; Garden City: Doubleday, 1975], 18-19)





Monday, August 28, 2017

Bob Vukich Debates (and defeats) Matt Slick on the Trinity


[W]e should note that in [1 Cor 8:6] it is possible to see the inclusion of Jesus Christ in the identity of the God of the Old Testament, but there is no exclusion of the existence of other beings that might in some sense be considered divine. Paul takes seriously the existence of those beings, but he is clear that Christ is far above them in authority, surely more in the category of the one God than of the lesser powers, demi-gods, so to speak . . . Paul does not question [their] existence. (George Carraway, Christ is God Over All: Romans 9:5 in the context of Romans 9-11 [Bloomsbury, 2015], 87, 89 n. 141, comments in square bracket added for clarity).

Recently, LDS apologist Bob Vukich debated Presbyterian Matt Slick from CARM on the Bible Thumping Wingnut youtube page:



To say that Bob soundly defeated Slick is an understatement, but I will let the listener/watcher make up their own mind about the outcome of this debate.




Was Joseph Smith Irish?

Videos of Ugo Perego's interview with Gospel Tangents has been posted on youtube. The most recent one is, for some odd reason, of interest to me (my name, "Robert Boylan" is the Anglicized version of Roibeard Ó Baoighealláin, for those who may be interested)

Was Joseph Smith Irish?


Éirinn go Brách!

Saturday, August 26, 2017

Groucho Marx meets Novak's Rule

Dr. Dale Tuggy seems to be channelling Groucho Marx (“From the moment I picked up your book until I put it down, I was convulsed with laughter. Some day I intend reading it") as well as proving Novak's Rule, all at the same time, in the following comment in reference to this forthcoming book:



I wonder how Tuggy would react if a Trinitarian were to dismiss his recent book on the Trinity (Tuggy is a Socinian ["Biblical Unitarian"]) by simply appealing to something by Sam Shamoun or James White or Robert Morey? If Tuggy or any other Unitarian would find that underwhelming, well, now you have an idea of how I felt when Tuggy posted his inane "response."

The confidence among critics to comment on texts they have not read (in this case, the forthcoming Book of Mormon Central text, but also the Book of Mormon itself) has not escaped commentators:

Many historians have written about the Book of Mormon. Few have read it. Or perhaps more fairly, few historians have carefully analyzed its content. (Max Perry Mueller, Race and the Making of the Mormon People [Chapel Hill: The University of North Carolina Press, 2017], 22)

The Book of Mormon has not been universally considered by its critics as one of those books that must be read in order to have an opinion of it. (Thomas F. O'Dea, The Mormons [Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1957], 26)


With respect to the CES Letter, by all means, read it (One can read Runnells' CES Letter and "responses" here). Here are some of the rather cogent responses to the various arguments therein, including those leveled against the Book of Mormon (has Tuggy read the Book of Mormon? I doubt it):

FairMormon, Response to "Letter to a CES Director" and "Debunking FAIR's Debunking"

Brian Hales, The CES Letter A Closer Look (youtube)

Letter to a CES Director: A Closer Look

Kevin Christensen, Image is Everything: Pay No Attention to the Man Behind the Curtain

Michael R. Ash, Bamboozled by the "CES Letter"

I have been making a page on this blog of Tarik LaCour's responses (featuring some guest posts by the likes of Stephen Smoot and Brian Hales) here.

Links to other online responses









Margaret Barker on Eusebius and Psalm 91:9


Eusebius also knew that the second God was the one whom Philo had called the Logos (Preparation XI.14).

In his Proof he began by stating his case:

Remember how Moses calls the Being, Who appeared to the patriarchs and often delivered to them the oracles written down in Scripture, sometimes God and Lord and sometimes the Angel of the Lord. He clearly implies that this was not the Omnipotent God but a secondary Being, rightly called the God and Lord of holy men, but the Angel of the Most High His father. (Proof I.5)

The Lord was the visible second God:

And if it is not possible for the Most High God, the invisible the Uncreated, and the Omnipotent to be said to be seen in mortal form, the being who was seen must have been the Word of God, Whom we call Lord as we do the Father. (Proof I.5)

Eusebius knew, then, the tradition apparent in several texts, that both Father and Son could be called Lord, just as the gnostics knew that both could be called Father. He distinguishes throughout between God Most High and another Lord, and shows in his treatment of Ps 91 that God Most High was the Father addressed by Jesus (Proof IX.7). The psalmist had addressed the second God, later manifested as Jesus, when he spoke of the Lord who had made his refuge with God Most High. Eusebius here has read the Hebrew more accurately than modern translations since the text of Ps. 91.9 does actually say:

You, O Yahweh, are my refuge,
You have made Elyon your dwelling place.

which clearly distinguishes Elyon from Yahweh, God Most High from the Lord. As has happened so often, translators have altered the text in order to give what they think it should have said. (Margaret Barker, The Great Angel: A Study of Israel’s Second God [Louisville, Ky.: Westminster/John Knox Press, 1992], 198-99)





Trouble in Snufferite Paradise

It seems like Denver Snuffer's movement is splintering. A recent blog post discusses the internal inconsistencies with the claims of the Snufferites, including the inane claim that the movement is not organised and the laughably bad claim that it preserves the restoration of the gospel through Joseph Smith:

The Denver Snuffer Movement: Time for a reality check

For a thorough historical, theological, and Scriptural "beat-down" of Snuffer's claims, see the following from Gregory L. Smith reviewing Snuffer's book, Passing the Heavenly Gift:

Passing Up the Heavenly Gift (Part One of Two)

Passing Up the Heavenly Gift (Part Two of Two)





Friday, August 25, 2017

The Problematic Nature of Purported Old Testament Marian "Types"

I have discussed Mariology quite a bit on this blog; I have been studying its origin and development, as well as Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox defences of the various Marian dogmas and doctrines, for the past 11+ years now (I have been asked to write a book on the topic from an LDS perspective; I hope to do that, though it will be forthcoming for a few years, as with volumes on soteriology and Christology—I wish to write thorough volumes on these central issues, so they will be long-term projects).

One of the more popular "go-to" arguments is that of alleged Marian types in the Old Testament that have Mary as their anti-type (fulfillment). However, they often break down when examined carefully. For instance, some Catholics (e.g., John Henry Cardinal Newman; Tim Staples) claim that Mary is the New/Second Eve, appealing to Irenaeus of Lyons and Tertullian who made the Mary/Eve parallel in their writings. As Eve was created in a state of original innocence, Mary, to be better than the type, must have been free of sin all throughout her life. However, when one reads the totality of these and other authors, they accused Mary of personal sin, showing that they did not believe that Mary, to be typified by Eve, to have been sinless, one of the building blocks of the Immaculate Conception which would be proclaimed as a dogma in 1854 by Pius IX.

For a discussion of the Immaculate Conception and the theology of patristic authors such as Irenaeus, see:


For a previous discussion of another "type," the Ark of the Covenant, see:


Indeed, so flimsy is the purported typological “proofs” that some Catholics have appealed to, many have called this interpretive framework into question. Robert Sungenis, in answering a question posed by another Catholic apologist, John Salza, wrote the following. While I disagree with Sungenis on many topics (e.g., see Responses to Robert Sungenis, Not by Bread Alone (2000/2009)), I agree completely that the appeal to purported OT types of Mary to be very questionable (my fellow Latter-day Saints are not immune to this, too; some authors have twisted the Old Testament to find “proofs” of Joseph Smith. A classic example is that of Joseph Fielding McConkie, His Name Shall be Joseph: Ancient Prophecies of the Latter-day Seer [Salt Lake City: Hawkes Publishing, 1980], so I am not simply picking on our Roman Catholic friends on this point):

R. Sungenis: John, in general, I think we have to be very careful when we attempt to use analogies and allegories to prove Catholic dogma. A tendency to use proof-texting, for example, is often utilized when attempts are made to prove Catholic doctrines about Mary from the Old Testament. Some are tempted to mold the allegory so that it will fit the doctrine, and since allegories are somewhat fluid, one can usually cut and paste them until he finds an impressive connection, after which we are prompted to marvel how the Old Testament teaches Mary’s Immaculate Conception, Perpetual Virginity or Assumption. In actuality, the Old Testament doesn’t provide any factual evidence supporting these three Marian doctrines, and the New Testament can only vouch for one, perhaps two, at best. In fact, some Old Testament allegories could be fashioned in such a way to deny some Marian doctrines. Marian doctrines are supported mainly by Catholic magisterial pronouncements, and the factual evidence regarding those doctrines comes mainly from Tradition, not Scripture. (Source)



Thursday, August 24, 2017

Discussion of Papal Infallibility

In 1870, Pius IX wrote the following in Pastor aeternus (DS 3074):

[T]he Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra, that is, when carrying out the duty of the pastor and teacher of all Christians by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority defines a doctrine of faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, through the divine assistance promised him in blessed Peter, possesses that infallibility with which the divine Redeemer wished that His church be endowed in defining doctrine on faith and morals; and so such definitions of the Roman Pontiff of themselves, but not from the consensus of the Church, are unalterable. (Denzinger, H., & Rahner, K. (Eds.). (1954). The sources of Catholic dogma. (R. J. Deferrari, Trans.) (p. 457). St. Louis, MO: B. Herder Book Co.)

According to Roman Catholic apologist, Robert Sungenis, the criterion for infallibility is:

A) The pope must be speaking ex cathedra, which means: (1) that he is speaking in his recognized role as teacher for all Christians (2) that he precisely defines a doctrine, not merely give general teaching (3) that the definition concerns only matters of faith or morality (4) that the definition is commanded to be believed and obeyed by the whole Church (5) that such teachings are irreformable and not subject to denial from the Church -without these criterion fulfilled, the Roman Pontiff does not speak infallibly. (Debate on Papal Infallibility, Robert Sungenis versus James White, October 2000; the debate can be found online here)

I bring up the Roman Catholic dogmatic definition of Papal Infallibility as I am sure it will be discussed in the next few days. Why? Pope Francis, according to recent reports, stated that the liturgical reforms during the 20th century, accumulating in the Novus Ordo Missae, are "irreversible," and said such with his "magisterial authority”:

Pope Francis says with magisterial authority: the Vatican II liturgical reform is ‘irreversible’

 While much could be said about the dogma of papal infallibility, there is an overwhelming body of evidence, both biblical and historical, showing that the definition of Vatican I to be simply false and is to be rejected.

With respect to the Mass itself, I have written a great deal on how it is opposed to the Bible and even the theology of the earliest patristic authors so I won't repeat such arguments here. Interested readers should pursue, for instance, the articles one finds on the following page:


In the above, I interact with one of the best, if not the best, book defending the Mass as a propitiatory sacrifice. Furthermore, contra some recent Catholic apologists, official Roman Catholic dogmatic teaching does not allow for the development hypothesis (per Newman et al) for the papacy and papal infallibility.

One opponent of the doctrine who would later leave communion with Rome would be the Ignaz von Döllinger. The following extracts highlight how utterly ahistorical the modern Catholic dogma about papal authority and infallibility is:

For thirteen centuries an incomprehensible silence on this fundamental article reigned throughout the whole Church and her literature. None of the ancient confessions of faith, no catechism, none of the patristic writings composed for the instruction of the people, contain a syllable about the Pope, still less any hint that all certainty of faith and doctrine depends on him. For the first thousand years of Church history not a question of doctrine was finally decided by the Pope. The Roman bishops took no part in the commotions which the numerous Gnostic sects, the Montanists and Chiliasts, produced in the early Church, nor can a single dogmatic decree issued by one of them be found during the first four centuries, not a trace of the existence of any. Even the controversy about Christ kindled by Paul of Samosata, which occupied the whole Eastern Church for a long time, and necessitated the assembling of several Councils, was terminated without the Pope taking any part in it. So again in the chain of controversies and discussions connected with the name of Theodotus, Artemon, Noetus, Sabellius, Beryllus, and Lucian of Antioch which troubled the whole Church, and extended over nearly 150 years, there is no proof that the Roman bishops acted beyond the limits of their own local Church, or accomplished any dogmatic result . . . The dispute about heretical baptism, in the middle of the third century, had a still more clearly dogmatic character, for the whole Church doctrine of the efficacy and conditions of sacramental grace was involved. Yet the opposition of Pope Stephen to the doctrine confirmed at several African and Asiatic Synods, against the validity of schismatically baptism, remained wholly inoperative. Stephen went so far as to exclude those Churches from his communion, but he only drew down sharp censures on his unlawful arrogance. Both St. Cyprian and Firmilian of Cesarea denied his having any right to dictate a doctrine to other bishops and Churches. And the other Eastern Churches, too, which were not directly mixed up in the dispute, retained their own practice for a long time, quite undisturbed by the Roman theory. Later on, St. Augustine, looking back at this dispute, maintains that the pronouncement of Stephen, categorical as it was, was no decision of the Church, and that St. Cyprian and the Africans were therefore justified in rejecting it; he says the real obligation of conforming to a common practice originated with the decree of a great (plenarium) Council, meaning the Council of Arles in 314 . . . [In the eighth century] Pope Hadrian I vainly endeavored to get the decrees of the second Nicene Council on Image Worship, which he had approved, received by Charles the Great and his bishops. The great assembly at Frankfurt in 794, and the Caroline books, rejected and attacked these decrees, and Hadrian did not venture to offer more than verbal opposition. In 824, the bishops assembled in synod at Paris spoke without remorse of the “absurdities” (absona) of Pope Hadrian, who, they said, had commanded an heretical worship of images (Mansi, Council. Xiv, p. 415 seq) . . . There is another fact the infallibilist will find it impossible to explain. We have a copious literature on the Christian sects and heresies of the first six centuries--Irenaeus, Hippolytus, Epiphanius, Philastrius, St. Augustine, and later, Leonitus and Timotheus, have left us accounts of them to the number of eighty, but not a single one is reproached with rejecting the Pope’s authority in matters of faith, while Aerius, e.g., is reproached with denying the episcopate as a grade of the hierarchy. (Janus [pen name for Ignaz von Döllinger], The Pope and the Council [1870],
53, 54-55, 61-62, 73)

With respect to the clause:

[A]nd so such definitions of the Roman Pontiff of themselves, but not from the consensus of the Church, are unalterable.

 This means that, when all the criteria of infallibility are met (the only undisputed instance, post-1870, of this occurring was on November 1, 1950, when Pius XII defined the Bodily Assumption of Mary), the dogmatic definitions of the Roman Pontiff are binding in and of themselves, not from the consensus of the Church. Furthermore, this document and council settled a dispute about which is superior: the pope or the councils? This dogmatic constitution and Vatican I clearly came down on the former; the problem, however, is that another ecumenical (ergo, infallible in its decrees) council stated the opposite. In the decree Haec sancta from the Council of Constance, dated April 6, 1415, we read the following:

This holy Synod of Constance, which forms an ecumenical council, legitimately assembled for the eradication of the present schism and for the unity and reform of the church of God, head and members, to the praise of almighty God in the Holy Spirit: in order to achieve the unity and reform of the church of God more easily, safely, richly and freely, ordains, defines, decrees, decides and declares the following:

First, this synod, legitimately assembled in the Holy Spirit, forms an ecumenical council and represents the Catholic Church in dispute, has its authority directly from Christ; everyone, of whatever estate or dignity, even if this be papal, is bound to be it in matters relating to the faith, the eradication of the said schism and the universal reformation of this church of God, head and members.

Similarly, anyone, of whatever condition, estate, and dignity, even if this be papal, who stubbornly refuses obedience to the commands, resolutions, ordinances, or precepts of this holy synod and any other general council legitimately assembled in respect of what is said above and all that has happened and is to happen in respect of this, shall, if he does not come to his right mind, be subject to the appropriate punishment and be duly punished, by other legal means should this be necessary. (Hans Küng, Christianity: Essence, History, and Future [trans. John Bowden; New York: Continuum, 1994], 466, emphasis added)

As Küng notes (ibid., 467) about the trouble Constance posed to the papacy (emphasis in original):

No wonder that advocates of a curial ecclesiology did not hesitate to claim that the decrees of Constance were not binding, with often very strange, pseudo-historical arguments. Constance, it was said, had not been ‘approved’ by the Pope, so its decrees are not formally in force. But I already demonstrated in Structures of the Church (written in 1962, already before the Second Vatican Council), how threadbare such an argument is. For in the real ecumenical councils of the real ecumenical councils of the first millennium, in any case the question of a formal papal approval was never raised; the approval of the emperor was decisive and people were content with the general consensus of the Bishop of Rome as patriarch of the West. Papal consent only arose at the medieval general synods, which were wholly dominated by the Popes. But at the Council of Constance, which again understood itself to represent the whole church, explicit papal approval was no longer thought necessary. Precisely because the council derived its authority directly from Christ, precisely because it stood above the Pope (or rather above the three Popes), the question of papal approval never arose from the start.


When the Vatican I decree on the papacy was issued, many critics believed that it would give Rome carte blanche to proclaim beliefs as dogmas that have no basis in either the Bible or anything that could be called "tradition." Such was proven when, in 1 November 1950, Pius XII dogmatised the Bodily Assumption of Mary in the bull Munificentissimus Deus. Part of the bull, including the definition of the dogma, reads thusly (emphasis added):

44. For which reason, after we have poured forth prayers of supplication again and again to God, and have invoked the light of the Spirit of Truth, for the glory of Almighty God who has lavished his special affection upon the Virgin Mary, for the honor of her Son, the immortal King of the Ages and the Victor over sin and death, for the increase of the glory of that same august Mother, and for the joy and exultation of the entire Church; by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own authority, we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.
45. Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith.
46. In order that this, our definition of the bodily Assumption of the Virgin Mary into heaven may be brought to the attention of the universal Church, we desire that this, our Apostolic Letter, should stand for perpetual remembrance, commanding that written copies of it, or even printed copies, signed by the hand of any public notary and bearing the seal of a person constituted in ecclesiastical dignity, should be accorded by all men the same reception they would give to this present letter, were it tendered or shown.
47. It is forbidden to any man to change this, our declaration, pronouncement, and definition or, by rash attempt, to oppose and counter it. If any man should presume to make such an attempt, let him know that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.

Commenting on the dogmatising of the Bodily Assumption, Roman Catholic Mariologist, Michael O'Carroll wrote:

The dogma was part of a programme planned by Pius XII, as he confided to Mgr. (later Cardinal) Tardini shortly after he had become Pope. It came as a climax to a movement of piety and theology centred on Our Lady, and prompted continuity and expansion of this movement. Literature on the subject had increased in the present century; in the decade prior to the definition . . . Due largely to Fr. Jugie’s expertise and influence, the question of Mary’s death was removed from the scope of the dogma. The idea of tracing a historical tradition from apostolic times was abandoned. It was thought better to concentrate on the whole of divine revelation so as to bring to an explicit stage what it contained implicitly. (Michael O’Carroll, Theotokos: A Theological Encyclopedia of the Blessed Virgin Mary [Wilmington, Del.: Michael Glazier, Inc., 1982], 55)

With respect to the biblical witness, there is no explicit biblical testimony to this dogma, as it admitted by Catholics themselves. Of course, neither Catholics or Latter-day Saints hold to the formal sufficiency of the Bible, but most Catholics, following Yves Congar and others, hold to the material sufficiency of Scripture which holds that all dogmas are either explicit or implicit therein. The "implicit" evidence for this dogma is that of the "woman" in Rev 12:1. The text reads as follows:

A great portent appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve thorns. (NRSV)

Many modern Catholic apologists (e.g., Tim Staples) argue that the "woman" (γυνη) in Rev 12:1 is Mary, and such is evidence of her bodily assumption into heaven as this "woman" who gives birht to the "man-child" is in heaven. As Mary gave birth to Jesus (the man-child), this "proves" Mary was assumed bodily into heaven. However, the vast majority (both Catholic and non-Catholic) interpreters of the book of Revelation rejects the Marian interpretation of this verse. Consider the following representative examples:

Woman. In Revelation “woman” or “women” occurs nineteen ties: 12:1, 4, 6, 14, 15, 16, 17, 17:3, 4, 6, 7, 9 f., 18 and elsewhere in 9:8, 14:4, 19:7, 21:9. It might be said therefore, that the woman symbol is almost as important as the Lamb. This woman and the new Jerusalem are the antithesis of the harlot . . . [such is a symbol] of the faithful community. (J. Massyngberde Ford, Revelation [AB 38; Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday, 1975], 188)

Who is the cosmic woman? Some connect her with figures in Israel’s or the church’s past or future. Eve, the mother whose seed would bruise the head of the dragon/serpent (Gen 3:1-6); Mary, the mother of Jesus; or the heavenly Jerusalem as bride of the Lamb (19:7-8; 21:9-10). Others suppose a pagan or astrological connection: a queen of heaven like the Egyptian Isis, or the constellation Virgo. Still others hypothesize a corporate representation of God’s people: Israel, who escapes the dragon/Pharaoh into the wilderness on the wings of eagles (Exod 19:4; c. Ps 74:12-15); or Zion, the mother of the persecuted people of God (Isa 66:7-9; 4 Ezra 13.32-38). It is unlikely that John has in mind an individual woman, historical or otherwise. Mary, the mother of Jesus, did not give birth to the entire people of God as this woman will (Rev 12:17). Eve gives birth to all humans, not specifically the believing community. Though the “sign” language clearly intends to guide hearers and readers to look to the heavens in the way that they seek our constellations, John cannot have had Virgo exclusively in mind since she is the sixth sign of the zodiac and this woman (12:1) is connected integrally with the number “twelve” . . . We can gain a better sense of what John intends by his “woman” representation when we look at the way he puts it to narrative use. He deploys the word gyne (woman) nineteen times. He is preoccupied with several primary roles for women in first-century society: wife (19:7), mother (12:4, 13, 17), and sexual threat (Jezebel’s false teachings conveyed through symbolism of fornication, 2:20; sexual intimacy that defiles holy warriors, 14:4; harlotry of Rome, 17:3, 4, 6-7, 9, 18). A more comprehensive study reveals that John has oriented his use of gyne around the competing images. Most notable, though the images do not come into play directly in chapter 12, is the thematic opposition between the wife and the harlot. This woman is as directly associated with her children (12:17) as the harlot later is with Rome (17:18). The most intriguing opposition is the one between the competing signs of the woman in 12:1 and the dragon in v. 3. To be sure, war breaks out in heaven between Michael the dragon (v. 7), but that later conflict is based upon the enmity that already exists between the dragon and the woman. God’s intentions, as they operate through the characterization of the woman, are already being opposed by the dragon, according to vv. 1, 3. It is not an outright hot war, it is certainly a hypertense cold one . . . The woman’s attire reveals much about her identity. He is, first of all, clothed with the sun. Clothing in Revelation is more than mere outer wear; its type and color illustrate important qualities or character traits of the person wearing it. Sackcloth indicates mourning and judgment. A purple and scarlet dress symbolizes Rome’s harlotry and opposition to God (17:4; 18:16). Christ’s bloody robe indicates the slaughter he and his followers have endured for their witness (19:13). Yet John then declares the followers’ robes are dazzling (19:14); that is precisely because they have washed them in Lamb’s blood (7:14). The dazzling robe takes on a quality o particular significance; it signals a successfully established eschatological relationship to God. The mighty angel of 10:1 is robed in a dazzling white cloud. Dazzling robes are worn by those who witness victoriously to the lordship of Christ (3:5, 18; 4:4; 7:9, 13). The bride’s (i.e., the church’s) intimate relationship with the Lamb is indicated partially through her dazzling attire (19:8). Even more dazzling would be the brightness of the sun. Though John uses “sun” most often in reference to the physical star around which the earth orbits (even if he did not himself understand it in this way). In two other places besides 12:1 he connects the quality of the sun’s color or shining with a character who populates his prophecy. At 1:16 the child of humanity has a face that shines like the sun. The face of the mighty angel clothed in a cloud at 10:1 shines similarly. In both those cases, their sunshine indicates that they are representatives of God. According to the psalmist, it is God who is apparently so adorned (Ps 104:1-2). This woman’s relationship with God and her identity as a representative for God are highlighted by the fact that she, too, is cloaked with the sun. All of her shines like the sun! Clearly, she must represent something extremely important about how God expresses God’s self in the life of God’s people. I have already argued and will maintain subsequently that she represents God’s procreative ability to birth a people of faith.

The “moon under her feet” signals elevated status; as a cosmic being she stands far above the human followers who trace their faith existence through her. But it is the stephanos (crown) of stars o her head that best complements that sun-cloak that robes her. Like the dazzling robe, the crown is an accoutrement awarded the believer who conquers by witnessing faithfully to the lordship of Christ (2:10-11; 3:11-12). The twenty-four heavenly elders whose perpetual worship is highlighted in the hymnic sections are outfitted with crowns (4:4, 10), as is the one like a child of humanity himself (14:14). Interestingly, the child of humanity also holds a symbolically complete 7 stars in his hand (1:16, 20 2:1; 3:1). This woman’s crown possesses stars in another symbolically complete number: 12. Though the number of the stars no doubt operates from the cosmological understanding that there were 12 stars of the zodiac, John integrates its use into his narrative as a number of representing completeness in terms of rapport with God (7:5-8; 21:12, 14, 16, 21; 22:2). Beale argues that the number represents both the 12 tribes (7:4-8) and the 12 apostles, who formed the leadership of the nascent church. This interpretation gains strength from the fact that earlier in his prophecy John equates stars with angels, who in turn represent churches (1:16, 20). The 12 stars, then, represent the completeness of the church that finds its foundation and indeed its genesis in this woman. (Brian K. Blount, Revelation: A Commentary [New Testament Library; Louisville, Ky.: Westminster/John Knox Press, 2009], 225, 226-27)

In the Middle Ages devotion to Mary saw the other of Jesus in Virgo, and from these the picture of the queen of heaven became a central motif of ecclesiastical painting and sculpture.

Yet the context rules out this interpretation of a specific historical future. The heavenly woman, rather, is an image of the end-time salvation community, a symbol of the church. She is the heir of the promises of the Old Testament a people of God; pointing to this is the reference to the twelve stars (cf. Gen. 37:9), which symbolize the holy twelve tribes in their end-time fullness and perfection (cf. 7:4-8; 14:1). Against the possibility that the heavenly woman refers to the people of God of the old covenant, out of which the Messiah was born, is both the continuation of the story (vv. 13-17) and quite generally the fact that nowhere in Revelation is the question of the relationship of Israel to the church treated as a theological theme. The certainty that the church has her roots in Israel and that ow she has entered into the claims of Israel to the church treated as a theological theme. The certainty that the church has her roots in Israel (cf. 7:4-8). Also, considerations of whether the heavenly woman may be understood as a heavenly prototype of the church, as a community of the consummation, find no support in the text, which clearly speaks in what follows of the earthly fate of this woman and localizes her place on earth. That the woman appears “in heaven” does not indicate a serious contradiction when one recognizes that here heaven is introduced not as the place of God and his heavenly assembly but as the firmament on which an appearance of symbolic significance becomes visible. That the woman is clothed by the sun and stands above the moon—no different than the crown of stars—signifies the promises to the church; to her is promised the future consummation and triumph over the powers of darkness. (Jürgen Roloff, Revelation [Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 1993], 145)

woman: This woman is surely the bride, the heavenly Jerusalem (19:7–8; 21:9–10), antithesis of the harlot (Rome) (17:14; 18:16). . . . The woman, though first seen in a setting of splendor, is with child and close to delivery. Her birth-pangs may be those of Eve (Gen 3:16); they are, more immediately, the birth-pangs of travailing Israel. See Mic 4:10, “Writhe and groan, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail.” In rabbinical literature “the birth-pangs of the Messiah” is a familiar phrase. Verses 5–6 identify the woman more closely. Whatever his background, and whatever the later use of the text (in Mariology), for John this woman is the heavenly Israel, depicted in terms of the woman of Gen 3. She is faced by Satan, the ancient serpent (Gen 3:1); she brings forth in anguish (3:16); her child will suffer attack by Satan (3:15). She is, all the while, the people of God who gives birth to the Messiah and the messianic age.
In stark contrast to the woman stands another sign: a great red dragon. Much earlier than the Python image is that of dragon or sea-serpent as a mythic symbol of chaos. Babylonian and Canaanite texts mention a serpentine monster with seven heads. In his text, John links the “dragon” with the “serpent” of Gen 3. Already, in a retelling of the Genesis story, the nāḥāš (“snake”) had become “the devil” (Wis 2:24). In his reference to the sweeping down of “a third of the stars” John seeks to depict the colossal reach and vast strength of the monster. In Dan 8:10, which he surely has in mind, the “stars” are angelic representatives of pagan powers. John’s text has nothing to do with a legendary “fall” of angels. It is worth observing that a reading of Gen 6:1–4 in the sense of angelic “fall” is not biblical. It goes back to 1 Enoch 6–13.
The dragon seeks to destroy the child of the woman. Her “male child” is the Messiah, explicitly identified as such by the invocation of Psalm 2. The reference is significant. The anointed king of the Psalm is addressed by God not at his birth but at his enthronement: “You are my son, today I have begotten you” (Ps 2:7). See Acts 13:33, “This he has fulfilled … by raising Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm, ‘Thou are my son, today I have begotten thee’ ”; the text is applied to the resurrection (see Rom 1:4). By the “birth” of the Messiah John does not mean the nativity but the Cross—the enthronement of Jesus. Interestingly, the idea behind this passage of Revelation is thoroughly Johannine: the death of Jesus, which is his glorification, is also the moment of the assault of Satan and of his defeat. Precisely by dying on the cross, Jesus defeated the dragon and was exalted to God’s right hand. The Fourth Gospel has no temptation story at the beginning of the ministry: Satan makes his bid at its close. It is he who instigated Judas’ betrayal (John 13:2, 27; see Luke 22:3). In his final discourse Jesus declared: “I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me” (John 14:30). Luke, who has many contacts with the Johannine tradition, reflects the same viewpoint. After the temptation story he adds, “And when the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from him until an opportune time” (Luke 4:13); the moment indicated by the “opportune time” is the moment of the passion (22:3, 53).
Meanwhile the woman—the people of God of the Old Testament who, having given Christ to the world, thereby became the Christian Church—found refuge in the desert where God cared for her for 1,260 days. This is the equivalent of forty-two months or three and one-half years—the earthly duration of the Church. By “desert” John seems to have in mind more than an unspecified traditional place of refuge; v. 14 surely has the Exodus in view. Wilderness suggests the Sinai wandering: the desert was the place of freedom and safety after Egyptian bondage, the oppression of the dragon/Pharaoh. Besides, God’s care, described as sustainment, or nourishing, recalls the manna.
To John the Church appears as a woman, pregnant with the Messiah, a woman who will become bride of the Lamb. In the here and now she is protected from the malignant design of the dragon. Jesus had spoken to Peter of “my Church,” promising that the “gates of Hades” would not prevail against it (Matt 16:18). We share that assurance. But we must also expect that the Church will ever be an ecclesia pressa, a Church under fire. The dragon will be around until the end. (Wilfrid J. Harrington, Revelation [Sacra Pagina Series vol. 16; Collegeville, Minn.: Liturgical Press, 2008], 128, 129-31)

What about the purported patristic evidence for belief in this concept? In section 78 of the Panarion, entitled, "Against the Antidicomarians" 11:2-6, Epiphanius of Salamis wrote the following:

If any think <I> am mistaken, moreover, let them search through the scriptures and neither find Mary's death, nor whether or not she died, nor whether or not she was buried--even though John surely traveled throughout Asia. And yet, nowhere does he say that he took the holy Virgin with him. Scripture simply kept silence because of the overwhelming wonder, not to throw men's minds into consternation. For I dare not say--though I have my suspicions, I keep silent. Perhaps, just as her death is not to be found, so I may have found some traces of the holy and blessed Virgin In one passage Simeon says of her, "And a sword shall piece through thine own soul also, that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed." And elsewhere the Revelation of John says, "And the dragon hastened after the woman who had born the man child, and she was given the wings of an eagle and was taken to the wilderness, that the dragon might not seize her." Perhaps this can be applied to her; I cannot decide for certain, and am not saying that she remained immortal. But neither am I affirming that she died. For scripture went beyond man's understanding and left it in suspense with regard to the precious and choice vessel, so that no one would suspect carnal behavior of her. Whether she did, I don't know, and [even] if she was buried, she never had carnal relations, perish the thought! Who will choose, from self-inflicted insanity, to cast a blasphemous suspicion [on her], raise his voice, give free rein to his tongue, flap his mouth with evil intent, invent insults instead of hymns and glory, hurl abuse at the holy Virgin, and deny honor to the precious Vessel? (The Panarion of Epiphanius of Salamis, Books II and III. De Fide [2d ed.; trans. Frank Williams; Leiden: E.J. Brill, 2013], 624-25)

One should note the lack of information about the end of Mary's life. Notwithstanding Epiphanius often being cited as patristic support for the Bodily Assumption of Mary, nowhere does Epiphanius affirm such as a dogmatic belief of the Christian faith. Indeed, as the leading scholar on the origins and development of the dormition and assumption traditions of Mary, Stephen Shoemaker, noted on Epiphanius' understanding of the end of Mary's life:

This long and profound silence surrounding Mary’s life first arouses concern only late in the fourth century, when Epiphanius of Salamis pauses momentarily during his energetic refutation of the heretics in the Panarion to reflect on the disquieting fact that he can find no authorized tradition about how the Virgin’s life ended. Despite Epiphanius’ close contacts with Palestine, where the cult of the Virgin’s tomb would soon develop, he professes a complete ignorance of the Virgin’s final days. This is not for want of searching, however: Epiphanius reports that he has carefully investigated the matter and uncovered several possibilities, but ultimately he cannot decide which of these alternatives bears the truth. Epiphanius begins by addressing the biblical tradition, apologizing that the Scriptures are silent on this matter ‘because of the overwhelming wonder, not to throw men’s minds into consternation’. Despite the apology, Epiphanius quickly turns to the New Testament for clues as to how the Virgin’s earthly life may have come to a close. He first considers Symeon’s prophecy that ‘a sword shall pierce your own soul too’, thinking that this might suggest Mary’s death as a martyr. Then Epiphanius turns to chapter 12 of John’s Apocalypse, which describes ‘a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of stars’, who gave birth to a son. When attacked by ‘the dragon’, she was ‘given the two wings of the great eagle, so that she could fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to her place where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time’. His attacks thwarted, the dragon then turns to persecute her children. This passage, Epiphanius proposes, may indicate that Mary did not die as other human beings, but somehow remained immortal, although he makes clear his own uncertainty and refrains from advocating this view . . . Ultimately, Epiphanius cannot himself decide if either of these two biblical traces is trustworthy, and, hedging his bets, he concludes: ‘[I] am not saying that she remained immortal. But neither am I affirming that she died’. This is in fact the general tenor of his entire discussion of the matter: throughout he very carefully avoids endorsing any of the possibilities he raises, merely noting their existence and some of the evidence in favour of each position. This does not necessarily mean, however, that when Epiphanius was completing his Panarion (c. 377) there were as of yet no developed traditions about the end of the Virgin’s life in circulation; it merely reveals that there was no authoritative or orthodox tradition (in his view) to which he could turn. Quite the contrary, Epiphanius’ indecisive reflections themselves suggest that some difference of opinion had already arisen among Christians as to whether Mary actually died or remained immortal, a difference which Epiphanius could not resolve through recourse to either biblical or church tradition. (Stephen J. Shoemaker, Ancient Traditions of the Virgin Mary’s Dormition and Assumption [New York: Oxford University Press, 2003], 11-12, 13-14)

Much more could be said about Papal Infallibility, but let us end simply by quoting the condemnation of Honorius due to theological heresy (Honorius thought Monothelitism which states Christ had one, not two wills, contra Chalcedon [AD 451] that dogmatically affirmed Dyothelitism):

The holy council said: After we had reconsidered, according to our promise which we had made to your highness, the doctrinal letters of Sergius, at one time patriarch of this royal god-protected city to Cyrus, who was then bishop of Phasis and to Honorius some time Pope of Old Rome, as well as the letter of the latter to the same Sergius, we find that these documents are quite foreign to the apostolic dogmas, to the declarations of the holy Councils, and to all the accepted Fathers, and that they follow the false teachings of the heretics; therefore we entirely reject them, and execrate them as hurtful to the soul. But the names of those men whose doctrines we execrate must also be thrust forth from the holy Church of God, namely, that of Sergius some time bishop of this God-preserved royal city who was the first to write on this impious doctrine; also that of Cyrus of Alexandria, of Pyrrhus, Paul, and Peter, who died bishops of this God-preserved city, and were like-minded with them; and that of Theodore sometime bishop of Pharan, all of whom the most holy and thrice blessed Agatho, Pope of Old Rome, in his suggestion to our most pious and God-preserved lord and mighty Emperor, rejected, because they were minded contrary to our orthodox faith, all of whom we define are to be subjected to anathema. And with these we define that there shall be expelled from the holy Church of God and anathematized Honorius who was some time Pope of Old Rome, because of what we found written by him to Sergius, that in all respects he followed his view and confirmed his impious doctrines. We have also examined the synodal letter of Sophronius of holy memory, some time Patriarch of the Holy City of Christ our God, Jerusalem, and have found it in accordance with the true faith and with the Apostolic teachings, and with those of the holy approved Fathers. Therefore we have received it as orthodox and as salutary to the holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and have decreed that it is right that his name be inserted in the diptychs of the Holy Churches. (The Sentence Against the Monothelites, Session XIII of the Sixth Ecumenical Council--The Third Council of Constantinople, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers series II, vol. 14 pp. 342-43; emphasis added)

Many Catholics will now admit that Honorius was condemned for theological heresy, but he was a material heretic, not a formal heretic (meaning he preached heresy as a private theologian, but not as acting as Roman Pontiff). See John Chapman, The Condemnation of Pope Honorius (1907) for a discussion.

As the dogma of Papal Infallibility will probably be discussed in the next few days, such will provide Latter-day Saints a great opportunity to discuss, in an informed, honest manner, why we reject the dogma and also to give the reasons for our belief in the truthfulness of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.