Mr. WORTHINGTON. Now as to the
apostles. What authority, if any, have the apostles to direct the president or
the presidency in their work?
Mr. TALMAGE. Absolutely none.
Mr. WORTHINGTON. Suppose the president
should call in the apostles for consultation about some church matter, and the
apostles were all to advise a certain course to be pursued, would that be binding
upon him?
Mr. TALMAGE. In no sense.
Mr. WORTHINGTON. He could act just as
he pleased, without regard to that?
Mr. TALMAGE. Very true, and he does so
act. (Proceedings Before the Committee on Privileges and Elections of the
United States Senate in the Matter of the Protests Against the Right of Hon.
Reed Smoot, a Senator from the State of Utah, to Hold His Seat, 4 vols. [Washington,
D.C.: Government Printing Office, 1906)], 3:9)
Mr. TAYLER. How did Joseph F. Smith
get into the twelve apostles after he was a first counselor?
Mr. TALMAGE. As I say, the custom has been
that after a man has been ordained to the office of an apostle, and has been
made one of the quorum of the twelve, and then has been removed from that by
being elevated to the presidency, on the death of the president he is still considered
to be one of the apostles. Of course, if there were twelve members in that
quorum before the death of the president, and his two counselors had been previously
ordained apostles, there would be fourteen apostles at that time.
Mr. TAYLER. Then, as a matter of fact,
have there ever been, actively, in what you call the quorum of twelve, thirteen
men?
Mr. TALMAGE. Of course, thirteen men
would not be supposed to compose the quorum of twelve, but there has been, and
are to-day, I suppose, more than thirteen apostles.
Mr. TAYLER. But can there be more than
fifteen apostles?
Mr. TALMAGE. Yes, sir.
Mr. TAYLER. There can be?
Mr. TALMAGE. There are to-day more.
Mr. TAYLER. Who are they?
Mr. TALMAGE. I do not know. There are
men who have been ordained to the apostleship and are not members of the quorum
of the twelve.
Mr. TAYLER. I am not talking about men
who are deposed. Is Moses Thatcher an apostle?
Mr. TALMAGE. No, sir. I do not mean
that either. There have been men who have been ordained to the apostleship and
who have never been members of the quorum of the twelve. (Proceedings Before
the Committee on Privileges and Elections of the United States Senate in the
Matter of the Protests Against the Right of Hon. Reed Smoot, a Senator from the
State of Utah, to Hold His Seat, 4 vols. [Washington, D.C.: Government
Printing Office, 1906)], 3:90)
Mr. TAYLER. Now, I also asked you the
other day whether it was not necessary that the apostles should be unanimous,
and you said you thought not.
Senator SMOOT. Yes, sir.
Mr. TAYLER. Now, I also asked you the
other day whether it was not necessary that the apostles should be unanimous,
and you said you are thought not.
Senator SMOOT. I know they have not
been.
Mr. TAYLER. Of course, they are not
unanimous at all matters, but I read from section 107 of the Doctrines and Covenants,
verse 23:
“The twelve traveling counselors are
called to be the twelve apostles, or special witnesses of the name of Christ,
in all the world; thus differing from other officers in the church in the
duties of their calling.”
Senator Smoot. Let me have that
volume, please.
Mr. TAYLER. Certainly.
Senator SMOOT (reading); “The twelve traveling
counselors are called to be the twelve apostles, or special witnesses of the
name of Christ, in all the world; thus differing from other officers in the
church in the duties of their calling.”
Mr. TAYLER. Those are the twelve
apostles?
Senator SMOOT. Yes; those are the
twelve apostles.
Mr. TAYLER. I now read from the next
verse, the 24th: “And they form a quorum equal in authority and power to the
three presidents previously mentioned.”
Senator SMOOT. That is correct.
Mr. TAYLER. That is, the first
presidency?
Senator SMOOT. Let me explain what that
means before you go any further. That means that in case the presidency of the
church is disorganized by the death of the president, or otherwise, the quorum
of the twelve apostles are equal to the presidency and they become the leading
authority of the church.
Mr. TAYLER. I was not raising that question
now.
Senator SMOOT. That is what it means.
Mr. TAYLER. That is now what I am
after now. I want merely to identify those as the twelve apostles. Will you please
read verse 27?
Senator SMOOT (reading): “And every decision
made by either of these quorums must be by the unanimous voice of the same;
that is, every member of each quorum must be agreed to its decisions, in order
to make their decisions of the same power or validity one with the other.”
Which means this, that if the
presidency of the church is disorganized, the quorum of the twelve apostles are
then in power or at the head of the church, and it takes the unanimous vote of
that quorum on any question that may come up to equal a decision of the
presidency of the church if they were at the head of the church.
Mr. TAYLER. Now there is no presidency
of the church, and there are only twelve apostles.
Senator SMOOT. Now, I should like—
Mr. TAYLER. Then you say the twelve
apostles must be unanimous?
Senator SMOOT. I want to go on further
and state this: If the twelve apostles were all dead and the seven presidents
of seventies took charge, it would be the same; or, in other words, whenever
the presidency of the church is disorganized the quorum which has the authority
to make rules binding upon the church, or to pass anything that would be
binding on the people of the church, after presenting the same to the people,
must be unanimous to be equal to the decision of the presidency of the church. (Proceedings
Before the Committee on Privileges and Elections of the United States Senate in
the Matter of the Protests Against the Right of Hon. Reed Smoot, a Senator from
the State of Utah, to Hold His Seat, 4 vols. [Washington, D.C.: Government
Printing Office, 1906)], 3:272-72)