I do grow weary of "Mormons"
agreeing with Aaron's "God never sinned" schtick. Our theology
teaches no such thing.
Believing God was other than a
"man" in the sense Jesus was a "man" runs contrary to both
the Biblical texts and modern revelation.
The King Follett sermon makes clear, as
does the Johannine text, the Father was what Jesus was, not like us. (See John
14:7, 9, 15:8).
The idea the Father was
"fallible" or lacked His eternally possessed Omniscience is absurd.
"O how great the holiness of our God!
For he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it." (2
Nephi 9:20)
This is not to suggest predetermined
results or predestination. The fact remains we possess agency, however, the
Father knows us so perfectly and our lives are so known to Him, he can
perfectly anticipate our behavior and tailor our challenges accordingly.
He wouldn't have been a "savior".
He would simply have been a deity that entered into a mortal body, laid down
that body in death, and raised with a glorified body.
We know Jesus' Atonement was infinite, so
the Father was not a savior.
Joseph Smith made it clear Jesus was the
only Atonement offered and an infinite sacrifice. The emulation of Jesus was
limited to laying down their mortal and rising in immortality.
Suffering for sins was Jesus' mission
alone.
In his book, "The Infinite
Atonement" by Tad Callister lays out an incredibly complex Theological
argument insupport of the universal and complete nature of Jesus' Atonement.
Regardless, by way of simplicity, the
following dispells the problem some proposed.
For example, some claim, "Mostly for
the fact that other people on other worlds will be expected to believe in an
event that never even happened there."
I am expected to believe in an event that
allegedly occurred 2000 years ago.
Does the Savior’s Atonement extend beyond
this world? Elder McConkie taught: “Our Lord’s jurisdiction and power extend
far beyond the limits of this one small earth on which we dwell. He is, under
the Father, the Creator of worlds without number. (Moses 1:33.) And through the
power of his atonement the inhabitants of these worlds, the revelation says,
‘are begotten sons and daughters unto God’ (D&C 76:24), which means that
the atonement of Christ, being literally and truly infinite, applies to an
infinite number of earths.”
“The Savior is a multi-planet redeemer.
This seems consistent with the fact he is also a multi-planet creator, as
taught through Moses, “Worlds without number have I created; . . . and by the
Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten” (Moses 1:33). Paul taught the
same: “God . . . hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, . . . by
whom also he made the worlds” (Hebrews 1:1–2; emphasis added).”
The Savior “made the worlds,” a fair
interpretation of Doctrine and Covenants 76:42—“that through him all might be
saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him” (emphasis
added)—would suggest that the Savior saved all people from all worlds “made by
him.” The next verse seems to further substantiate this point: “Who [the
Savior] glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands” (D&C
76:43). Elder Russell M. Nelson confirmed these thoughts, “The mercy of the
Atonement extends not only to an infinite number of people, but also to an
infinite number of worlds created by Him."
Some contend this would make some exercise
an unreasonable degreeof faith, "To me such a thing would make for them to
have to exercise a great deal more faith than we are even required here."
Not if, like the Nephites, he visited them
as part of His "other sheep". Why would we believe otherwise?
They specifically state 1. Jesus is the
creator of many worlds. 2. The Savior of the inhabitants of those worlds and 3.
Will visit those "sheep".
Some infer the following, "Because the
text says that our Father and God lived on an Earth the same as Jesus Christ
did. And since Christ has a Father at the time he lived here, it stands to
reason that the Father had a Father as well."
You are welcome to make that leap in Logic,
however, the sermon makes it quite clear The Father is a senior deity in the
counsel and doesn't reach this conclusion specifically.
Is, "There is an eternal
pattern", as some claim?
Possibly, but it would necessarily require
the deities to be God prior to their mortal experience, as was Jesus' example.
They also cite, "And Christ said he
never did anything that he had not seen his Father do."
There were limits to this language,
specifically the Atonement. Joseph Smith limits this to the sojourn in mortality
as do the specific verses cited, Jesus' mortal perfection, dying and raising
again. Inference the Father also performed an Atonement would conflict with
clear passages naming Jesus as the Atoning One.
It isn't an assumption. It's a well
established principle Jesus' Atonement is Infinite and Eternal. That He is the
creator of "Worlds without end" and the Savior of the inhabitants,
who are thereafter begotten sons and daughters unto the One God.
Do both the Son and the Father have
physical bodies?"
Of course. See D&C 130:22. So logically
speaking, how does a physical being who must occupy a finite amount of space,
physically manifest himself unto an infinite amount of people on an infinite
amount of worlds? That's a great question. The first presupposition relied upon
is "logically speaking", implying it must be conceivable to the
constraints of the mortal mind. Additionally, God is Infinite and Eternal, is
there not sufficient time to appear to them?
Luke 24 states Jesus is able, with his
flesh and bone tabernacle, to appear and reappear. Even in an enclosed room
without using the door.
Also, that these worlds are identified as
"without number" God also declares, "all things are present with
me, for I know them all" as well, "And worlds without number have I
created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created
them, which is mine Only Begotten". He further declared, "The
heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are
numbered unto me, for they are mine. And as one earth shall pass away, and the
heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works,
neither to my words." (Moses 1:6, 33, 37, 38)
It's an absurd argument. If Jesus was
sinless, and did nothing except what the Father would do, then the Father's
sojourn into a mortality would have resulted in his living a sinless life,
laying down a mortal body in death, and by the power of his own Godhood,
raising with an immortal body of spirit, flesh and bone.
Why therefore, would he need a savior?
Because the Father's experience was not an
Atonement, freeing His children from Spiritual death, his resurrection would
not have freed man from Physical death.
This is a very logically cohesive and
foundational doctrine. Not sure why so many "Mormons" fall for
Aaron's irate nonsense that "God never sinned."
Aaron is often relying on the Doctrinal
ignorance of those he interviews. He never presents King Follett in an accurate
and complete context and draws conclusions our theology can't support.
For example, that God was not God at some
point in the past. The reality as we see in the Hebrew texts and such texts as
Ether, specifically Ch 3., is God's have their Godhood bestowed before they
become mortals. With that said, to infer that the Father would have been unlike
Jesus is absurd.
When Joseph Smith in King Follett declares,
"We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will
refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see."
But he doesn't say the Father was like us
in the same way, he states, "He was once a man like us; yea, that God
himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ
Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible."
The Father "dwelt on earth the same as
Jesus Christ Himself did".
This sermon is a funeral sermon and is
speaking specifically of death and resurrection. It states that even God died
and was resurrected. It ends the comparison there.
Elsewhere, on the issue of there being an infinite regress of Gods with each being a Saviour figure, Travis wrote:
[The] regression of Gods idea is flawed for a number of reasons, among them being it is rejected by most scripture. (God was always God, including Jesus)
However, were a person to make such an argument, the idea a "First Born" is foreordained to be a "savior" would require a more detailed examination of our doctrine.
For example, the "Savior" character would need to fit the same revealed pattern as Jesus. First, as an "intelligence", he would have been preeminent in obedience and intelligence. Abraham states:
"Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones". The author continues, "there stood one among them that was like unto God". This not only refutes the idea "God Sinned", but also supports that the "First Born" was selected to fill that role by exercising their agency and being thereby selected.
Then, as Elder Christofferson taught in April 2015:
"Prophets have revealed that we first existed as intelligences and that we were given form, or spirit bodies, by God, thus becoming His spirit children—sons and daughters of heavenly parents."
So, the idea individual agency would be subordinated to a calling for one selected as a "Savior" is to put a cart before the horse. As with Jesus, a savior role would be filled by an intelligence who was "like unto God" and thereafter born as a Spirit to Heavenly Parents. Considering he was "like unto God" then, he would so remain.
Jesus, thereafter continued his obedience. McConkie taught, as applied to mortals:
"... if we chart a course leading to eternal life; if we begin the processes of spiritual rebirth, and are going in the right direction; if we chart a course of sanctifying our souls, and degree by degree are going in that direction; and if we chart a course of becoming perfect, and, step by step and phase by phase, are perfecting our souls by overcoming the world, then it is absolutely guaranteed--there is no question whatever about it--we shall gain eternal life."
If that can be so of imperfect and rebellious man, how much more so for an Intelligence who was "like unto God" who's training consisted in the premortal realms of forming worlds, thereafter providing them law, and ultimately sacrificing for them?
Aarons, "its coincidental" the first born is a Savior is another example of his ignorance and lack of familiarity with LDS text and theology.
