Dave Bartosiewicz and his wife have released a new video entitled, If We Only Knew, We Would Have Never Joined Mormonism Episode 3 Other Sheep?
The focus of the video is John 10:16. However, it should be noted that they are out of left field when they claim that most Latter-day Saints hold to the Heartland Model of Book of Mormon events; the predominant view among LDS scholars is that of the Mesoamerican model (for a recent discussion, see, for example, John L. Sorenson, Mormon's Codex: An Ancient American Book [Deseret Book, 2013]).
John 10:16 reads as follows:
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
The historical Christian/non-LDS interpretation of this verse, with Dave and his wife, enunciate in the video, is that the “other sheep” in view are the Gentiles and that the Gentiles would “hear” Christ’s voice through the preaching of the gospel (cf. Matt 28:19).
In the LDS view, among the “other sheep” Christ had in view were His covenant people in the New World; indeed, we get this identification from Jesus Christ Himself when he appears in ancient Mesoamerica to the Nephites at Bountiful after his resurrection:
Ye are my disciples; and ye are a light unto this people, who are a remnant of the house of Joseph. And behold, this is the land of your inheritance; and the Father hath given it unto you. And not at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell it unto your brethren at Jerusalem. Neither at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell unto them concerning the other tribes of the house of Israel, whom the Father hath led away out of the land. This much did the Father command me, that I should tell unto them: That other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold and one shepherd. And now, because of the stiffneckedness and unbelief they understood not my words; therefore I was commanded to say no more of the Father concerning this thing unto them. But, verily, I say unto you that the Father hath commanded me, and I tell it unto you, that ye were separated from among them because of their iniquity; therefore it is because of their iniquity that they know not of you. And verily, I say unto you again that the other tribes hath the Father separated from them; and it is because of their iniquity that they know not of them. And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. And they understood me not, for they supposed it had been the Gentiles; for they understood not that the Gentiles should be converted through their preaching. And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice--that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost. (3 Nephi 15:12-23)
On page 195 of their book, Reasoning from the Scriptures with the Mormons (Eugene, Oreg.: Harvest House Publishers, 1995), Ron Rhodes and Marian Bodine offer the following criticisms directed to an imaginary LDS interlocutor, in conjunction to their citing Eph 2:1-22 and other texts discussing the preaching of the Gospel to the Gentiles (emphasis in original):
Would you please read aloud from John 10:16?
· Since Jesus' words in John 10:16 were addressed specifically to Jews, does it not make sense that when He referred to "other sheep" who were "not of this fold," He was talking about non-Jews who were not of the "fold" of Judaism?
· Please demonstrate from the context of John 10 that the references in verse 16 deals with "sheep" in America?
The attempted bombardment of the Bible notwithstanding, the critic will have to do a better case to disprove the LDS thesis and prove his thesis. Nowhere in the biblical texts will one ever come across people who are labelled God or Christ's "sheep," at the time the term is being used of them, who are unbelievers. Sheep, by definition, are following the shepherd at the time the term is predicated upon a person or a group. Matthew clearly tells us that the Lost Sheep are of the House of Israel (Matt 10:6). Further, John 10:4, 27 says that the “Sheep” are Christ's followers because they "know" Christ (οιδα is used in v. 4; the more potent term γινωσκω in v.27 [cf. its usage in John 17:3]), suggesting not just intellectual ascent, but inter-personal knowledge and commitment to Jesus Christ. Such descriptions do not fit the Gentiles at the time Jesus spoke the words of John 10:16; instead, it refers to people who had already accepted Him and had been following Him, which fits the interpretation offered by none other than Christ Himself in the Book of Mormon.
Notice another a propos instance of προβατον being used in the Gospel of John:
A second time he said to him, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep (προβατον). he saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep (προβατον). (21:16-17)
Outside the Gospel of John, Matthew has the highest instances of the usage of προβατον in any singular book of the New Testament (11 instances, where John has 15). Sometimes, it is coupled with ως or ωσει (“like/as”) when discussing false prophets or those who are not true believers in the Gospel (Matt 10:16; cf. 7:15) or when being used purely as a simile to discuss the movements of a crowd (Matt 9:36), but it is also used to describe people who, at the time it is used of them, are true believers, not then-future converts (Matt 10:16; 25:32-33; 26:31; cf. 15:24), again fitting the Book of Mormon and the historical LDS interpretation of John 10:16.
Further evidence against the "Gentile" reading is summed up by one Protestant apologist:
Further evidence against the "Gentile" reading is summed up by one Protestant apologist:
There are two major problems with this interpretation. First of all, if men are sheep before they believe then they already have eternal life: “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand” (John 10:28). If the sheep were never goats then how can they be born “dead in trespasses and sins” (Eph. 2:1)? No one among the unsaved Gentiles is ever called sheep. Try pigs and dogs (Mat. 7:6; 15:26-27; 2 Pet. 2:1, 22). The Gentiles were “without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world” (Eph. 2:12). Can one of God's sheep go to hell? Why then must God's sheep believe on Christ?
The second problem concerns the identification of the sheep. Who are the sheep? According to Micaiah (1 Kgs. 22:17), Asaph (Psa. 74:1; 78:52; 79:13), the Psalmist (Psa. 44:11, 22; 95:7; 100:3), David (Psa. 119:176), Isaiah (Isa. 53:6), Jeremiah (Jer 23:1; 50:6, 17), Ezekiel (Eze. 34:6, 11, 12), and Jesus Christ (Mat. 10:6: 15:24): the sheep are Israel. Notice the condition of Israel in the Old Testament:
My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace (Jer. 50:6) My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every hill: yea, my flock, was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them (Eze. 34:6). Then notice a forgotten prophecy from the Lord:
For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day. And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country. I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel. I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD. I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the 1 strong; I will feed them with judgment. (Eze 34:11-16) Note also the New Testament counterparts:
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Mat. 10:6) But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Mat. 15:24) When Christ came, his sheep—like Simeon (Luke 2:25), Annas (Luke 2:36-38), Zacharias and Elisabeth (Luke 2:8-20), and the disciples (John 1:40-49)--knew him (John 10:14), followed him (John 10:27), and received eternal life (John 10:28). We have here the separation of the Jewish sheep from the goats and the drawing of them to the Messiah. (Laurence M. Vance, The Other Side of Calvinism Rev. Ed. [Vance Publications, 1999], 339-40)
Which much more could be said about this and related issues, the Latter-day Saint interpretation of John 10:16 is not an exegetical stretch, and is perhaps the best passage in the Bible relating to the Book of Mormon and its peoples.
Dave and Janet Bartosiewicz end their video by claiming that, within Mormonism, there is a lot of deception. However, anyone who has interacted with Dave and his "arguments" will realise that this is projection--as one can clearly see in these refutations of his previous claims, for example, Dave (and now, Janet) are guilty of deception, not the LDS Church. This is just one small example of many.
Dave and Janet Bartosiewicz end their video by claiming that, within Mormonism, there is a lot of deception. However, anyone who has interacted with Dave and his "arguments" will realise that this is projection--as one can clearly see in these refutations of his previous claims, for example, Dave (and now, Janet) are guilty of deception, not the LDS Church. This is just one small example of many.
