Why Do Latter-day Saints Leave the Church? Dan Ellsworth Responds to Torn

 

Why Do Latter-day Saints Leave the Church? Dan Ellsworth Responds to Torn

Terry L. Johnson (Reformed): Paul is using David as an Example of a Justified Person in Romans 4:6-8 (cf. Psalm 32)

 Commenting on Rom 4:6-8 (cf. Psa 32):

 

The ‘blessed’ man is one ‘to whom God reckons righteousness’, and that ‘apart from works’. Notice the apostle’s point. It is not as though justification by faith alone were an article of faith taught in a single obscure place. He points to Abraham and David as examples of those in whom the addition and subtraction of justification have been experienced. Their sins were forgiven’, ‘covered’ and ‘not taken into account’, what we have termed the ‘subtraction’ of justification. They were also ‘recknon(ed) righteous’, what we have called the ‘addition’ of justification. All that has been done ‘apart from works’. These ‘case studies’ of Abraham and David are cited as examples of what is true throughout the whole Old Testament. (Terry L. Johnson, The Case for Traditional Protestantism: The Solas of the Reformation [Edinburgh: The Banner of Truth Trust, 2004], 89)

 

To see how this is a “self-own” as the kids would say, see the discussion of King David and his re-justification at:

Response to a Recent Attempt to Defend Imputed Righteousness

 

 

"Elias" as a "Forerunner" in the Revelations of Antonio A. Feliz (Restoration Church of Jesus Christ)

I am always interested in how other Restorationist groups use “Elias” to denote a forerunner, not simply OT Elijah (cf. “Elias” as a “forerunner” in LDS Scripture).

 

As background, Antonio A. Feliz served as president of "The Church of Jesus Christ of All Latter-day Saints," later renamed "Restoration Church of Jesus Christ." The following comes from The Book of the Little Flock, comp. Evan Sharley (2026)

 

"Hidden Treasures and Promises," Section 24:11 (May 15, 1986):

 

11. For, my son, thou art called with a call of Elias, yea, even to be my Messenger unto the saints of the latter-days that they may return unto Me and also that they may lift up their eyes from their downtrodden places and that they may reach up unto The Most High from beneath the shadow of their guilt. (p. 143)

 

"The Book of the First Presidents," Section 7: (February 13, 1987):

 

19. Even now, my Holy Spirit is moving upon the people of the earth in these things; for it is by my Holy Spirit that they know of the need to seek to begin their path of exaltation unto the Terrestrial. Be thou, therefore - together with those of my Holy Priesthood who will join with thee - as one with the spirit and calling of Elias - even my messenger - unto them. Even so, amen. (p. 218)

 

 

Hyrum M. Smith and Janne M. Sjodahl: "the Holy Spirit does not quote the Scriptures, but gives Scripture"

 Commenting on D&C 59:5-6:

 

5-6. Our Lord has declared that these are the greatest commandments in the Law, because upon them “hang” all the Law and the Prophets. The Word of God presupposes and depends on love of God and fellowmen. If there is no such love, laws and instructions are of but little avail.

 

Heart, might, mind, and strength] “Heart” stands for “emotions,” “sentiment.” “Might” here stands for “soul,” the term used in Matthew 22:37, and means the spiritual faculties. “Mind” refers to the intellect, and “strength” to the physical attributes. This commandment enjoins on us to love our heavenly Father so that our entire beings—our emotions, our spiritual faculties, our mental and physical activities are all devoted to Him and His service.

 

In Deuteronomy 6:5, the great commandment reads “Heart,” “soul,” and “might”; Matthew has, “Heart,” “soul,” and “mind”; Mark has, “Heart,” “soul,” “mind,” and Luke, “Heart,” “soul,” “strength,” and “mind.” In the Doctrine and Covenants the text differs somewhat from all. When the Spirit of the Lord speaks through a human instrument, He acts independently, even when proclaiming truths formerly revealed. Strictly speaking, the Holy Spirit does not quote the Scriptures, but gives Scripture. (Hyrum M. Smith and Janne M. Sjodahl, The Doctrine and Covenants: Containing Revelations Given to Joseph Smith Jr., the Prophet, with an Introduction and Exegetical Notes [Salt Lake City: The Deseret News Press, 1945], 438-49, emphasis in bold added)

 

Kenneth Wilson (Protestant) vs. Common Proof-Texts for Believers Having Immediate Union with Christ At Death" (e.g., Hebrews 9:27)

  

“Immediate union with Christ occurs at death”

 

Protestants cite numerous scriptures claiming these teach immediate union with Christ upon death. These include Heb 9:27, “And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment.” (NASB) After death God judges people. Nothing infers when that judgment will occur. If I say, “I am going to eat ice cream after I arrive home,” that does not mean I will immediately open the freezer and eat ice cream. I may want to eat dinner prior to eating dessert tonight. I may want to spend time with my wife discussing her day. Claiming that this verse proves an immediate blissful abode with Christ cannot withstand scrutiny. Additionally, “after that the judgment” does not sound particularly blissful. Judgment comes prior to Christ’s embrace. How is that immediate union?

 

Another passage cited by Protestants is 2 Cor 5:6-8. “So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.” (ESV) Many authors miss the context by neglecting the verses that follow: “So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.” (2 Cor 5:9-10) Death inevitably produces a meeting with God, but again, no time frame is provided. Christ’s judgment seat does not appear to generate bravery unless you are pleasing the Lord by obeying him (1 John 2:28). Judgment precedes union. (The judgment seat of Christ may occur at each individual’s death rather than postponed until the Great White Throne judgment)

 

Phil 1:21-24 has also been used. “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if to live in the flesh,--if this shall bring fruit from my work, then what I shall choose I know not. But I am a strait betwixt the two, having the desire to depart and be with Christ; for it is very far better: yet to abide in the flesh is more needful for your sake.” (ASV) Paul’s desire to be with Christ after death in no way proves he is ushered directly into Christ’s arms upon dying. A judgment must precede it. This verse does not support immediate bliss with Christ after death.

 

In Rev 6:9-11, Christian martyrs plead with God for judgment upon their killers. “And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: and they cried with a great voice, saying, ‘How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?’” (DRA) This is one of the stronger arguments but still falls short. Scripture does not tell us anything about what transpired between death and the martyrs being under the altar. No immediacy exists. This does not imply soul sleep, although bodily sleep is evident elsewhere (e.g., 1 Cor 11:29-30; 1 Thess 4:13-18).

 

Similarly, the saints who are martyred in the Great Tribulation indeed stand before God to serve Him. But the text does not state they went immediately to God’s Throne.

 

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes . . . So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation [της θλιψεως της μεγαλης], and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple.” (Rev 7:9-15, NKJV)

 

The words of Christ to the thief (Luke 23:34) could possibly limit a delay into Christ’s presence to a single day. “Then he said, ‘Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!’ And He said to him, ‘I assure you: Today you will be with Me in paradise.’” (HCSB) This assumes that paradise was incorporated into “Heaven” after Christ’s resurrection. It cannot be proven. IT also assumes the thief experienced immediate bliss instead of a preceding judgment “today.” It is unlikely the thief entered Paradise bypassing Christ’s judgment of his works, since Scripture teaches judgment must occur. Therefore, no Scripture states that immediately upon death we are at peace with Christ. In fact, repeatedly in scripture, a judgment of our deeds occurs prior to that intimacy with Christ. (Kenneth Wilson, The Purgatory Principle for Protestants: How God’s Purifying Judgment and Mercy Answer Injustice [Montgomery, Tex.: Regula Fidei Press, 2023], 76-79)

 

What the Critics wont tell you about the Book of Abraham

What the Critics wont tell you about the Book of Abraham

 

Morgenstern and Segan on the Genesis Apocryphon Presenting Abraham as being a Prophet Who Receives Oracles Via Dreams

  

19:14. And I, Abram, dreamt a dream on the night that I entered the land of Egypt The addition of a dream, perceived in antiquity as a form of divine communication, offers a justification for Abram’s seemingly selfish behavior in the biblical story. Instead of presenting him as an opportunist who is willing to endanger his wife to save his own skin, this interpreter has now transformed Abram into a prophet who received a divine warning about this impending danger. Furthermore, according to the content of the dream, Sarai, represented by the palm tree, is the one who raises her concerns over possible harm to Abram, represented by the cedar tree, and not Abram himself. (Matthew J. Morgenstern and Michael Segan, “The Genesis Apocryphon,” in Outside the Bible: Ancient Jewish Writings Related to Scripture, ed. Louis H. Feldman, James L. Kugel, and Lawrence H. Schiffman, 3 vols. [Philadelphia: The Jewish Publication Society, 2013], 1:251)