Monday, October 26, 2020

Protestant Apologist Fails (and gets triggered when asked) to Defend Protestantism

On the 18 and 25 October, I participated in a zoom discussion with a fellow Latter-day Saint and a few Protestants, including Ed Havaich. Ed has not made the video for 18 October available (where he embarrassed himself on baptismal regeneration and Rom 6:3-7 and unable to provide evidence for Sola Scriptura). Last week, proving that he is, as are many Protestant apologists, unable to provide positive evidence for his Protestantism (he also got triggered after being asked to stop assuming Sola Scriptura and to prove it!). I have put some excerpts of the discussion online:


Protestants, Apostasy, and the Priesthood





Protestants Assuming, but not Wanting to Prove, Sola Scriptura





Old Testament Prophecies of the Aaronic Priesthood in the New Covenant




Protestant apologists like Ed and their intellectual failure to defend their theology is the single greatest evidence that Protestantism is a false gospel.



Sunday, October 25, 2020

Sam Shamoun vs. Matt Slick on Limited Atonement

 Last Night Sam Shamoun debated Matt Slick on the "L" of TULIP:


Sam Shamoun Vs Matt Slick: Is Limited Atonement Biblical?





While I strongly disagree with Shamoun on many topics, he did not just win this debate--he destroyed Slick's arguments and (blasphemous) Calvinistic theology.


For more problems with Reformed theology, see:


An Examination and Critique of the Theological Presuppositions Underlying Reformed Theology





Catholic apologists on Historical Issues in Judith and Tobit

One argument I don’t use against the Apocrypha in discussions with Catholics is that of the purported historical errors in these volumes. The reason is that, as Catholics (at least faithful, traditional ones) believe the autographs of inspired scripture to be inerrant (click here for more on this), if one accepts a book (e.g., Judith) as theopneustos (God-breathed scripture), one will labour under the a priori assumption that this is something other than an error—it being a genuine mistake is not an active possibility within the realm of possible interpretations, so it would be better to discuss the reception of these books in Second Temple Judaism and early Christianity instead. This was pointed out to James White by Gary Michuta during their 2004 debate on the Apocrypha, though it appears White did not get the point Michuta was making.

 

Notwithstanding, it is instructive to see how Catholics disagree among themselves as to how to answer these issues. The following are how Catholics offer differing (sometimes contradictory) explanations of how to resolve some of the historical issues within Judith and Tobit. If/when a Catholic apologist states that the Book of Mormon or some other uniquely “Mormon” scripture is false and uses the fact that LDS scholars and apologists are undecided as to how to explain away a purported discrepancy, one should feel comfortable bringing up similar issues (such issues are compounded in light of the Catholic dogma of the inerrancy of the autographs [which is denied by many priests and scholars, some of whom I know personally, but the historical dogma is that of inerrancy]):

 

Trent Horn:

 

. . . the alleged errors in the deuterocanonical books, such as Judith identifying Nebuchadnezzar as the king of Assyria instead of as the king of Babylon (Jud 1:1 ["It was the twelfth year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, who ruled over the Assyrians in the great city of Nineveh. In those days Arphaxad ruled over the Medes in Ecbatana"]) or Tobit being described as having lived for more than 150 years (Tob 14:11 [“So now, my children, see what almsgiving accomplishes, and what injustice does-- it brings death! But now my breath fails me." Then they laid him on his bed, and he died; and he received an honorable funeral”]), can be explained. Specifically, these statements are only errors if the author was asserting a literal description of history, but even Protestant scholars agree that the authors of Judith and Tobit were not writing in the genre of literal history.

 

When it comes to the book of Tobit, Martin Luther called it a “pious comedy”, Bruce Metzger called it an “adventure story”, and J.C. Dancy called it a “folk tale”. . . Concerning Judith, Luther said it was fictional due to its titular character Judith (a name that literally means “Lady Jew”) being a symbol for the Jewish people. (Trent Horn, The Case for Catholicism: Answers to Classic and Contemporary Protestant Objections [San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 2017], 57-58 [quotations from the NRSV of Judith 1:1 and Tobit 14:1 added in square brackets])

 

James White calls this approach to the alleged errors in books like Judith an “imaginative” solution, which implies that it is ad hoc and unsound, but he does not interact with any evidence for the nonliteral nature of these texts. Scholars of Hellenistic Jewish literature, on the other hand, are well aware of how ancient authors used anachronism in order to underscore the didactic nature of their historical fiction. (Ibid., 59)

 

Robert Bellarmine

 

On Tobit:

 

. . . it is customarily objected that this book seems to contradict itself. For, in chatper 3, it is said that Sarah, whom the younger Tobias was going to marry, lived in Rages, a city of the Medes, where we read that Gabael was (Tobit 4). Later, however, in chapter 9, when Tobias arrived at the place where Sarah was, from there he sent the angel to Gabael in Rages; therefore it is not true that the home of Sarah was in Rages.

 

Michael Medina in book 6, chapter 14 on the right faith in God thinks in chapter 3 “Rages” is read by a mistake in Scripture, since in Greek it is εν εκπατανοις. But it is hardly credible that such an error could take place, since there is no similarity between Rages and Ecbatana. Others, like Lyranus, say that either there were two Rages in Media, or that certainly in chapter 3 Rages is meant, not the city itself, but some places nearby; for, some one is said to live in Rome, who actually lives in Tusculum or some other place outside of Rome. This opinion is more common, and more true. (The First General Controversy: On the Word of God, Book One, Chapter XI in Controversies of the Christian Faith [trans. Kenneth Baker; Keep the Faith, Inc., 2016], 63)

 

On the Book of Judith:

 

But there is a very difficult objection against this book. For, this history seems to be very contradictory, since in chapter 5 it is said that it took place after the return of the people from the Babylonian captivity, and nevertheless it is said in chapter 1 that at the time Nebuchadnezzar, king of the Assyrians, was fighting against Arphaxad, king of the Medes, who had built Esbatana, and these things in no way are in agreement: for, at the time when the people returned from the captivity, the monarchy of the Assyrians had been destroyed, and not Nebuchadnezzar, but Cyrus, or Darius was ruling the Assyrians, and the Persians and the Medes.

 

This great difficulty in a marvelous way has teste the ingenuity of learned men. There are two main opinions about this. One is of those want to place the history of Judith after the Babylonian captivity . . . another opinion is that of those who teach that the history of Judith took place before the Babylonian captivity . . .But none of these opinions seem to be sufficiently probable . . . It seems to us what should be said is that the history of Judith took place in the time of Manasseh, king of Judah . . . Perhaps you will say: If this history took place during the time of King Manasseh, why in the preparation for war, which is narrated in this book, is there no mention of the king? Why is this the whole affair attributed to the high priest?

 

I respond: perhaps this war took place during the captivity of Manasseh and therefore, since the king was absent, the affairs of the kingdom were conducted by the high priest. Also, perhaps there is no mention of the king, because the war did not reach as far as the city of Jerusalem, where the king was. (The First General Controversy: On the Word of God, Book One, Chapter XII, in Ibid., 64, 65, 68)

 

Robert Sungenis

 

In defense of his claim that Nebuchdnezzar in the book of Judith is not the king of Babylon:

 

R. Sungenis: Another reference to your question is the work:

 

Discours sur l'histoire universelle

by Jacques Bénigne Bossuet, 1627 - 1704

 

Dessein général de l’ouvrage

 

He writes: Saosduchin fils d’Asaraddon, appelé Nabuchodonosor dans le livre de Judith, défit en bataille rangée Arphaxad roi des Mèdes.

 

Translated from the French: Saosduchin son of Asaraddon known as Nebuchadnezzar in the Book of Judith beat Arphxad king of the Medes in an ordered battle.

 

URL: https://www.robertsungenis.org/2004/12/december-2004-qa.html; cf. Ibid., "Question 39- Book of Judith: Was Nebuchadnezzer King of Assyria?")

 


Saturday, October 24, 2020

Potential Debates and New Microphone Suggestions/Fund

I am trading messages with a well-known Roman Catholic apologist about a debate or two (which will probably be hosted on another well-known Roman Catholic's youtube channel). I am hoping to debate (1) whether the Book of Abraham is God-breathed (cf. 2 Tim 3:16) Scripture and (2) the veneration of icons/images. I hope to announce more if/when things become more "solid."

On other (though related) news . . . 

I am hoping to invest in a very good new microphone (than rely on my laptop's microphone) for future debates/podcasts (I have been asked to discuss LDS vs. Protestant theologies of salvation this week), etc.

So, (1) if you have suggestions, let me know and

(2) if you wish to donate so I can invest in a very good one, you can donate via PayPal.

(*) I have been told the following are worthwhile investing in by Zander, the tech/audio guru from Book of Mormon Central:


Friday, October 23, 2020

Bradshaw et al., "Where Did the Names Mahaway and Mahujah Come From? A Response to Colby Townsend’s “Returning to the Sources,” Part 2 of 2"

The Interpreter journal just posted a new article which provides a lot of neat insights into the onomasticon of the Book of Moses:


Jeffrey M. Bradshaw, Matthew L. Bowen, and Ryan Dahle, Where Did the Names Mahaway and Mahujah Come From? A Response to Colby Townsend’s “Returning to the Sources,” Part 2 of 2 (PDF)

Anthony P. Andrews and Fernando Robles Castellanos, "The Paleo-American and Archaic Periods in Yucatan" and the Question of "Horses" in the Book of Mormon

 A number of Latter-day Saints have appealed to the presence of horse bones teeth in the Loltun cave complex in Mexico as evidence of horses in Mesoamerica during the time of the Book of Mormon peoples, such as Jeff Lindsay. Corroborating this is the recent work of Anthony P. Andrews and Fernando Robles Castellanos in their essay, "The Paleo-American and Archaic Periods in Yucatan," in M. Kathryn Brown and George J. Bey III, eds., Pathways to Complexity: A View from the Maya Lowlands (Tallahassee: University Press of Florida, 2018), pp. 16-34. The following comes from pp. 25-26 (note, for e.g., where, referencing the comments of Peter Schmidt, we read that the horse may have "survived into the Late Archaic or even early Preclassic" eras of Mesoamerica):












Useful Background Information to D&C 129 from the Joseph Smith Papers

 In the recent volume of the Joseph Smith Papers, we have this useful background to D&C 129:

 

JS’s remarks in February 1843 centered on an explanation of the ways to distinguish between various types of heavenly messengers and the devil. Among eighteenth- and nineteenth-century Protestants , there were several competing ideas about the identification of angels, most of them based on a passage in the epistle to the Hebrews that mentions “an innumerable company of angels” and the “spirits of just men made perfect” (Hebrews 12:23-23). Some religionists held that these verses refer to “those translated to heaven in their bodies, and those raised from the dead after Christ’s resurrection” (Alexander Campbell, “Materialism—No. 2,” Millennial Harbinger, Oct. 1836, 456).  Others believed they refer to more generally to “all in every age and nation who have feared God and wrought righteousness” (MacKnight, New Literal Translation, 572). Theologians also debated the substance and materiality of angels. Eighteenth-century Swedish mystic Emmanuel Swedenborg suggested that angels were corporeal beings who had lived on the earth and could converse with men face-to-face. While those who believed angels were translated or risen beings seemingly believed that all angels were corporeal beings, some concluded that “angles have no corporeal forms” (Stuart, Letters on the Trinity, 111).  Theologian Charles Buck explained  that “as to the nature of these beings we are told that they are spirits,” with the “more general opinion” being that “they are substances entirely spiritual.” At the same time, Buck allowed that “they can at any time assume bodies and appear in human shape” (“Angel,” in Buck, Theological Dictionary, 19, italics in original).

 

JS suggested a new idea, which classified heavenly messengers as either resurrected corporeal beings or disembodied spirits awaiting resurrection. These distinctions may have appeared in Latter-day Saint theology as early as 1829, when the Book of Mormon suggested a difference between “angels and ministering spirits” (New Testament Revision 2, p. 138 [second numbering] [Joseph Smith Translation, Hebrews 1:7]). In his 27 June 1839 discourse, JS emphasized that “an angel of God (which is an angel of light) is a Saint with his resurrected body” but also noted that it was possible to be visited by deceased believers who were not yet resurrected.  JS used this occasion in February 1843 to refine that explanation by distinguishing between “resurrected personages” and “the spirits of just men made perfect” who were still awaiting resurrection.

 

In addition to teaching periodically about the ways to distinguish between types of angels. JS had demonstrated a long-standing interest in recognizing the differences between true and false spirits. A circa 8 March 1831 revelation urged the Saints to “beware lest ye are deceived” and to do “all things with prayer & thanksgiving that ye may not be seduced by evil spirits or the doctrines of Devils or the commandments of men for some are of men & others of Devils” (Revelation, ca. 8 Mar. 1831-A, in JSP, D1:282 [D&C 46:7-8]). A revelation the following May was even more specific, explaining, “There are many spirits which are false spirits which have gone forth in the Earth deceiving the world & also Satan hath sought to deceive you that he might overthrow you” (Revelation, 9 May, 1831, in JSP, D1:306 [D&C 50:2-3]). In April 1842 JS reiterated this message in a lengthy editorial in the church newspaper, urging the Saints to “try the spirits” (selections from Times and Seasons, 1 Apr. 1842, in JSP, D9:324-337). The, recounting portions of his own personal history to the Saints in a September 1842 letter, JS alluded to an early experience “on the banks of the Susquehanna” when the devil had appeared to him “as an Angel of light” (Letter to the Church, 7 Sept. 1842, pp. 66-67 [D&C 128:20]). (Spencer W. McBride, Jeffrey D. Mahas, Brett D. Dowdle, and Tyson Reeder, eds., The Joseph Smith Papers: Documents Volume 11: September 1842-February 1843 [Salt Lake City: The Church Historian's Press, 2020], 402-3)

 

On the related issue of LD angelology, see:


Ancient Texts Supporting D&C 130:5

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