Friday, July 13, 2018

Answering An Illogical Attempt to Refute the Claim LDS are "Christian" and an Appeal to Jeremiah 17:9

While offering advice on the question of whether Mormons are “Christian,” Eric Johnson wrote:

Another good response is this: “So if Mormon and Christian are synonymous terms, I must be a Mormon.” (Eric Johnson, “Introduction” in Eric Johnson and Sean McDowell, eds. Sharing the Goods News with Mormons [Eugene, Oreg.: Harvest House Publishers, 2018], 13-23, 325, here, p. 6)

This is not the first time that Johnson has made such a blatantly illogical (and, frankly, stupid) statement In his "review" on Amazon of Stephen Webb's book, Mormon Christianity: What Other Christians Can Learn from the Latter-day Saints (Oxford, 2013),  Johnson wrote:

In fact, if Mormons are Christians (synonymous), then I wonder if Christians (like Webb considers himself and I think I am too) are Mormon?

While Eric Johnson (and the rest of the team at MRM) are not exactly well known for having a good grasp of logic (and biblical exegesis, among many other things), this is just stupid to the nth degree. “Mormonism” would be considered a subset to the broader category of Christianity, which is the perspective of Webb and others, not that they are one to one equivalent (Webb was a Roman Catholic and would consider himself to be a “Christian”; that defeats the nonsense Johnson is imputing to him). Such a comment by Johnson would result in “theist” and “Muslim” being one to one equivalent (of course, this is a straw-man he deceptively foists upon Webb and presents as a valid "argument" for Protestants in conversation with Latter-day Saints). For Johnson's nonsense argument to work, he must believe (or deceptively present, as he does here) the thesis that Latter-day Saints believe that the category of "Christian" is exhausted by "Latter-day Saint." We do not.

As Johnson notes elsewhere:

Those who have contributed to this book align themselves with Protestant (evangelical) Christianity. (p. 325 n. 1)

Twisting this, like Johnson twists the LDS claim to being Christian, one could pose this question, replacing "Mormon" with "Reformed Baptist":

So if Reformed Baptist and Christian are synonymous terms, I must be a Reformed Baptist.

I am sure those with critical thinking skills will see why Johnson's "counter" is inane and deceptive.

On the "Are Mormons Christian?" question, be sure to see my responses to my friend Tarik LaCour on this issue:



As is often the case in Evangelical Protestant discussions of "Mormonism," the standard abuse of Jer 17:9 is thrown out:

People who consider themselves “good” enough to go to heaven do not understand the definitions of holiness or sin. As Jeremiah 17:9 puts it, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?” (p. 18)

The Hebrew word for “heart” is לֵבָב. The Greek term is καρδια. As any good Greek and/or Hebrew Lexicon will show, the term often denotes, not the organ, but the entirety of the person, and is often used positively in the biblical texts. Note, for example, these verses:

And Moses called Bezaleel and Aholiab, and every wise hearted man, in whose heart the Lord had put wisdom, even every one whose heart stirred him up to come unto the word to do it . . . And every wise hearted man among them that wrought the work of the tabernacle . . . (Exo 36:2, 8)

Psa 119:10-11 reads as follows:

I have turned to You with all my heart; do not let me stray from Your commandments. In my heart I treasure Your promise; therefore I di not sin against you. (1985 JPS Tanakh)

The Septuagint (LXX, Psa 118:10-11) reads:



With my whole heart I sought you; do not thrust me aside from your commandments. In my heart I hid your sayings so that I may not sin against you. (A New English Translation of the Septuagint)

The NET Bible has the following footnote for Jer 17:9 that is rather apropos:

The background for this verse is Deu 29:18-19 (Deu 29:17-18 HT) and Deu 30:17.

The Deuteronomy texts read thusly:

Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the Lord our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood. And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst. (Deut 29:18-19)

But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them. (Deut 30:17)

Obviously, the "heart" (which refers to the mind, will, and disposition of a man, not merely the muscle) is that of a person in a state of grievous sin (e.g., apostasy).

One final OT example would be that of Psa 78:70-72, speaking of King David

He chose his servant David, and took him from the sheepfolds; from tending the nursing ewes he brought him to be the shepherd of his people Jacob, of Israel, his inheritance. With upright heart he tended them, and guided them with skillful hand. (NRSV)

The Hebrew translated as "upright heart" is כְּתֹם לְבָבוֹ refers to a heart with integrity; the LXX phrase ἐν τῇ ἀκακίᾳ τῆς καρδίας refers to a heart that is innocent and without guile.


What is interesting is that, notwithstanding being fallen (including losing his initial justification due to his murder of Uriah and adultery with Bathsheba, requiring a re-justification), King David and his "heart" is spoken highly, not negatively, of. 

New Testament examples would include:

And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? (Luke 24:32)

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? (Acts 2:37)

As one critic of Reformed theology noted about the common appeal to Jer 17:9:

Jeremiah 17:9: “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?”

The argument is a “deceitful and desperately wicked” heart is not capable of seeking after God. This argument is very weak at best. Most importantly, however, the context does not support such a conclusion. Jeremiah is not saying the heart can only be bad. The very next verse reads, “I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.” Unless God gives man only bad things (which we know He does not), the heart must be capable of good fruit as well as bad. It should also be noted that prophets like Jeremiah often used hyperbole in their attempts to convince people of the truth. This verse cannot be ruled out as an example of that.

The poetic books also make use of hyperbole. Verses such as Psalm 51:5, “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me,” are suspect. Even if such a verse of poetry is taken literally, however, the verse says the Psalmists was born in sin, but it does not say he was born into total depravity as Calvinists might wish. Being sinful and being totally depraved are not the same thing. (Gil Vanorder, Jr. Calvinism’s Concept of Total Depravity: 12 Reasons to Reject it [Createspace, 2015], 13)


Interestingly, the LXX renders Jer 17:9 rather differently than the Hebrew. The LXX reads:

βαθεῖα ἡ καρδία παρὰ πάντα καὶ ἄνθρωπός ἐστιν καὶ τίς γνώσεται αὐτόν

The New English Translation of the Septuagint renders this verse as follows:

The heart is deep above all else, and so is man, and who shall understand him?


The translators of the LXX clearly did not understand this verse to refer to the fallen nature of man’s “heart”; quite the opposite, actually.

For a good LDS discussion of this, see Jeff Lindsay’s page on the LDS “testimony.”

Such eisgesis seems to be par for the course for the so-called "best" Evangelical Protestant critics of the LDS Church. For a refutation of an essay in the same book defending imputed righteousness, see:


Among other topics, a careful treatment of Isa 64:6 (another "proof-text" for Total Depravity) is exegeted.




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